Selling logs to a small time guy?

[NewYankeeSawmill]

I'm guessing there's a waiting customer before you start cutting, but...
I see this one logging crew working in my AO pretty regular, I'm 95% sure they're a local family. They have big equipment, John Deere hydro axe, skidders and dozers, a pair of 18-wheelers they use to haul the logs to the mill. It looks like they're cutting 21-footers, as they get 2-rows per trailer, and it's a long trailer... Sometimes they're working pulp/chip wood fields, sometimes timber.

I'm thinking about approaching these guys about buying a small log load one day when I see them (in their pickups, I often see the rigs park at this one roadside diner with their loads... catch them after lunch, etc.) I wouldn't just walk up to them when working, of course.

I only have a 13' mill, but can cut a 21 into 2x 10.5's just fine... I can pay cash, I'm a heck of a lot closer than the mill they're going to... I'd even take the little 6-10' junk they normally have to burn! But would they even be interested? Would it be worth their time, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Thanks for your input!

- Kevin

[barbender]

 It can be worth their time, or you can make it worth their time. Their main concerns will be, are we going to get paid for it? And, is your access good for the truck? If you're willing to pay for the wood up front in cash,  that takes care of concern #1. As far as the second concern, if you are close enough that one of the crew could look at your site (remember the part about making it worth their while) that would help. 

 Remember, if they have a mill they are dealing with where the truck goes in, gets unloaded and back to the job, and the check comes without any fuss, they don't have any motivation to sell you wood for the same money. So say they are getting $2000 for a load (I'm just throwing that number out), you may need to offer them $2200, or keep going up, until they get interested. 

 More than likely, they will only want to sell full loads, unless they have a clean up partial load at the end of the job.

[beenthere]

Won't hurt to ask. 

[NewYankeeSawmill]

Thanks guys, that's kinda my thinking? If I'm closer than the mill you save a little fuel/time, but they're not going to LOOSE money selling me a load. The clean-up at the end of the job was what I was really hoping for... If they pile it and burn it they make nothing, so may be willing to gather it up and drop it off cheap?

[beenthere]

Thanks guys, that's kinda my thinking? If I'm closer than the mill you save a little fuel/time, but they're not going to LOOSE money selling me a load. The clean-up at the end of the job was what I was really hoping for... If they pile it and burn it they make nothing, so may be willing to gather it up and drop it off cheap?

Assume you mean lose money, or is it indeed loose money?

Often see the mispelling of lose/loose on FF. Too different meanings. You might be looking for some loose logs that they are going to burn or don't have a full truckload to haul.
Talk to them, like you plan to at lunch or break time.  Do you have a trailer to set at their site to load logs that they can/want to sell to you?
Wish you good luck getting some logs.

[B.C.C. Lapp]

Heck yeah ask them.   It wont be the first time somebody wanted logs from them. 
Try to catch them when they aren't busy.   But hey, don't mention taking the shorty logs. Just let them load and send you their normal load. If you tell them your willing to take low grade, small or short logs believe me they will be happy to make sure you get them all.   
Less is more. Just tell them what your looking for, how much your willing to buy and where its going.   And if your maybe a little green in this, well keep it to yourself, you'll learn as you go. Good luck.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, ask the logger, and it will be easier for them to deal with you if they are the direct buyer of the timber rather than if they are contracting the harvest for a mill or other buyer of the wood.

[Southside]

Do the trucks have a loader on them or do you have a way to unload a semi trailer of logs?  Do you realize how much sawing there will be in a semi load of logs?  You don't want to drop that kind of coin and have the bugs wreck a bunch of it. 

[barbender]

 Just to help you manage expectations, anything merchantable will be picked up and hauled to the mill, topped off on the next job if necessary. 

[NewYankeeSawmill]

Just to help you manage expectations, anything merchantable will be picked up and hauled to the mill, topped off on the next job if necessary.

See that's what I was wondering? My thinking is that guy has every inch of wood sold before he even starts up his hydro-axe... I don't want to be the sucker that buys $500 worth of wood for $1000, then tries to cut it up and make money off my customers. While it may be possible to glean some profit from their waste, it's a fine line.... and I don't know where that is yet!

When I worked for a local tree guy (chipper truck driver and branch dragger), he saved his logs until he had a full load for the rig, and he complained it barely paid his fuel? Couple hundred bucks for an 18-wheeler full of residential logs 21-foot? Doesn't add up? I've got a class A, I know what diesel costs, and how far he had to drive? What's a trailer load of 'misc hardwood' go for these days? Residential logs, not forest grown hickory... I know it varies a lot, but.. I don't even have a ball-park of an idea right now. Is it $2k if it's good hardwood trees that are straight? Most of the local sawyers I spoke to get their wood free/barter/trade somehow, so couldn't tell me what I should expect to pay.

Thanks @Southside , that IS one of the problems I'm trying to noodle out. They do have a crane/boom  on one of their trucks, which is one reason I thought of approaching that group of loggers. I know I can't unload, and time = money... But man, I look at the burn piles they put together and think to myself there's gotta be a way! I know the liability with letting me scamper through the pile with a chainsaw isn't going to allow that to happen, but if you're cutting up a tree and got a short piece at the end that's good, but you know the mill doesn't want (because it's not a full piece)....? As a business owner if I can squeeze another 500 (cashish!) out of a job, that's something I strive to make happen. I just don't know if that's realistic to expect from professional loggers? In my days in the print-biz, the big shops didn't fuss with the small jobs for a reason, it was a distraction. Do big logging outfits want to even deal with a small-guy like me?
Thanks for the input folks!

[Southside]

The problem with  yard trees is the embedded metal, they often have mineral stain or from the massive growth rings from the abundant water, sewer, etc. and how often did you pull a tape measure on logs, or cut around defects to improve grade, etc?  As a tree guy you are not getting paid to do that, you are getting paid to safely get the tree on the ground and cleaned up, so a lot of mills won't touch yard trees or they won't pay hardly anything due to those risks.  Now I have seen where some guys develop a relationship with mills and bring logs in that meet specs and everyone wins, but that takes some effort, not just showing up with the junk that you were already paid to haul away.

[NewYankeeSawmill]

Thanks @Southside , that was kinda the niche I was looking to fill?
As a small-fry guy, I'll take the good-wood the mill's don't want to mess with? I realize that may translate to a lot of broken blades, and 5-foot boards, etc. but there's a math formula there, and if the variables all line up, profit can be wrung out! In my time in the print-biz, there was a space between "mom-n-pop" and "print-shop". Kinda where I'm looking, that middle-ground.
I might not get the max yield a professional mill with skilled sawyer's will, but a lot of tree co's around here just chip the stuff up, then pay $100 bucks to dump it somewheres. Sheesh! I believe that there's gotta be a way to make money there, I can almost smell it! 
Just hoping to figure out some of the easy pitfalls from the experienced folks here!
Thanks again!

[barbender]

 Short answer, they're not going to screw around with 5 foot pieces and such. There's a reason they're in a burn pile. But I've been wrong before, all you can do is ask them. 

 Keep in mind that their truck is set up for longer logs. They have no way to haul short chunks, unless they have long logs to put them on top of.

[beenthere]

Let us know what the logger(s) say after you talk with them. We'd like to hear back, so the wonderment you are going through doesn't continue. 

What is keeping you from having a visit with them? 
If they say "no", then it's done. 

If they don't say "no", then see what wiggle room they have and are willing to do. Would expect they would tell you whatever the next step is. 

We for sure don't know.   

[Southside]

Around here modern SYP mills are taking down to a 4" top if I remember correctly - it's insane how small they will take, so anything in a pile is slash or a rotted butt that was cut out.  Hardwood will be pulp or firewood trash is all. 

[Bert]

When I was logging steadily I always valued the guys that stopped in and wanted the shorts, leftovers, etc. Its hard to sell a 6ft, 30" diameter white oak log to a big mill or as firewood but to the right person its worth something. A decent log truck driver can stuff them on pretty tight. I would have talked to you no question. Give it a shot.

[Peter Drouin]

As long as I pay the same price as the big mills I get good logs.
Loades are 4500 bf to 6500+ bf. and all full truck loads. I can get all the wood I want.

[NewYankeeSawmill]

As long as I pay the same price as the big mills I get good logs.
Loades are 4500 bf to 6500+ bf. and all full truck loads. I can get all the wood I want.

Thanks for sharing. That was my thinking on the idea... unless you're contracted to sell the wood to a specific mill, whoever gets me the money, gets the wood! Cash is better than waiting for a check to clear. If I can save the driver time and fuel, maybe it even looks attractive? Dunno. Guess it depends on the logger.

Being from NY, I don't mind being blunt: Curious what you PAY for that load of wood, if you don't mind me asking? I'm not trying to be rude, by all means PM me if you prefer. I've noticed everyone here talking about prices/costs, but nobody puts any numbers to it? Of course there will be market variances by region and season. Perhaps that's more polite not to discuss? I don't mean to be rude, I am coming at this from complete ignorance. I dunno if a load of logs is worth $500 or $5000. Guess it depends on the logs? 
When I talked to the local sawyers here, they all got their wood for free/barter, so couldn't tell me what the market here is. I'm tempted to call the mill and pretend to be a logger and ask what they're paying?
Thanks again folks, enjoying the discussion and learning a lot!

[Cedarman]

Make a list of sizes and lengths that will work for you. Let them know that good nice logs work well also.  Ask them if they can help you. Cash is king. You give them your wish list, and ask them if they can give you a what they can do list and what it would cost.  The only time I cannot help a customer is when they don't ask me.
Talk to the logger, guys are used to hearing no.

[Peter Drouin]

W Pine.50 a bf [good log] when the knots get over 21/2" less $$ W Pine with 4" and up Is pulp not good for lumber. Then you have to look for the sweep and rot and deduct BF from there. Be sure to put the total BF of the log on the slip then show the deduction.
Rember crooked logs make crooked lumber.
I don't like more than 2" of sweep.

[Joe Hillmann]

I tried doing what you want to do this winter.  I found the loggers plenty willing to work with me.  The problem was all of them were in hardwoods and I wanted pine.   And the one that did have pine nearby was a state or county contract that required all the sales to have weights and receipts so he couldn't sell to me.

Like you, I was willing to take some less than desirable stuff if necessary and willing to pay pretty much whatever they said.  If I wanted hardwoods it sounded like most of them would have been happy to deliver a load to me.

[Peter Drouin]

The big mills around here only want 16'  14' some 12' no 10s or 8s. And they don't care how crooked they are.

Get a subscription to the Log Street Journal. It will give you an idea of what going on. on price. Or maybe online. It's for the Northeast for the most part. But it might help. Good luck.