Business advice

[brdmkr]

I have permission to take the proceeds from the sale of Lucas #2 and reinvest them in sawmill 'stuff'. 

I have been thinking that I would really like to have a band mill and I should have enough money to purchase a small manual mill.  I am leaning toward an electric with a 10 hp single phase motor ( WM LT 15 is the front runner).  I would use the mill to cut wide boards and beams for both myself and the public.

However, I have also been thinking about purchasing a kiln.  Likely a Nyle.  I would use this to KD my own stuff and KD for the public as well.  I think I have enough to purchase the kiln and a 20' reefer unit to use as the chamber.

I do not have funds for both!  My intention (business plan) is pretty simple.  I want to build a small lumber business providing a service for others, but I will also sell small quantities of wood to local wood workers and craftsmen (i.e., I do not see myself making very many 1000 bdft sales).  I want any equipment to pay for itself inside of three years and I would like it to be in good enough shape to make money beyond that.  It is unlikely that I will ever do this for a living until I retire.  BUT, once I retire, I would like the business to add substantially to my retirement income.  In the meantime, I would like to generate as much income as possible given the limited time I have to invest (OK, I want to make as much as possible with as little effort as possible ;D)  Seriously, given my full-time job, I have real constraints on my time to devote to this. So, this means that any business idea that requires serious volume is out of the question for the time being.  I really would be tickled pink if I could make an extra 5 k/year and I wouldn't be upset if I only brought in 2 - 3 k. 

The word seems to be getting out regarding the mill and I am really trying to provide a good product when I saw for someone.  I could see this aspect of the business growing, perhaps more so with a band mill in the arsenal.

However, I also think I could dry about half of the wood that I am currently cutting for others if I had a kiln.  I think that there may be a demand for drying lumber that others have milled as well.  To my knowledge there is only one working kiln in the area and he will work in small loads when he is drying wood for his own business.  In fact, I could see him sending me kiln work if I had a kiln.  I also think that having a kiln may provide more sawing work.

Given all of this, what would you think would be the better route to take?  I am sure that there are things I have not considered.  Please feel free to bring those up as well.

Thanks for any and all responses.

[Tom]

I like bandmills and one would allow you to cut wide boards, but.......

You are able to cut boards now.  Having a bandmill is just more of the same.

You can't dry wood, so investment in a Kiln will give allow you to do something that you can't do now.

I vote for the Kiln.

Use the Kiln to buy the bandmill.

[metalspinner]

A solar kiln is fairly inexpensive.  In fact you could build several for very little money.  It does take  longer to dry the wood, but with the small amounts you are talking about that may not be a problem.

The wider boards from the band mill are a bonus to the woodworker types, but remember the additional expenses with the bandmill...  blades, sharper, etc...

What about secondary processing equipment?  A moulder perhaps?  All those woodworkers would love to have their own custom made flooring.

[Radar67]

I was going to suggest a solar kiln as well, plus you may still be able to buy the band mill.  ;)

[brdmkr]

I have thought about the solar kiln.  I have even started a small home made DH unit in the shop.  As a money maker, I am left wondering if the capacity of solar coupled with the longer time frame might be detrimental.  On the plus side, solar is cheap to operate and from all I have read, requires less care to get a good product.  I have also wondered if I could guarantee a customer that his wood got hot enough long enough to kill all the little creepy crawlers.  This should be easy with a commercial kiln.  Maybe not? 

[Radar67]

With a collector like Pineywoods uses, the higher temps are achievable. If I remember correctly, the kiln temps went over 150. Piney, correct me if I'm wrong. One of the kilns we viewed earlier this year registered 114F on an overcast, cool day.

[LAZERDAN]

Wow it must be (mid life crisis) i've been plannig and building and have the same thoughts you do.   I am installing an e-bac right now into 12x20 .   If you have the time, Nyle is the way to go.  Hands down.   Cut trees ,put in kiln for the best quality.  I've done the research, you need alot of home work. Its an art.(Science)   If you buy new maybe you'll get basic instructions.  We took the Class at University of Minn.   Well worth it.   Like Tom said.  Get the kiln forget the saw for now.   Become a good Kilnist and you'll have people banging on your door.   Although if your NOT conscience  ( sp. sorry its late, I dont know if this has spellchecker)     about good practice you can ruin alot of wood real quick .  Have a good friend, sawyer, and expert woodsman.  Always says to me alot of people can saw, a select few can dry   (quality) Take it for what it's worth. my 2 scents   BTW  Nile is King   good choice

[pineywoods]

brdmkr, our solar kiln design is a bit unusual, we dry wet cypress down to 6 per cent in about 30 days, sometimes less. I really don't know for sure how hot they get. Our instrumentation only goes up to 160 F and it can get hotter than that. Radar mentioned a temp of 114 F. That was with an outside temp of 73 deg under a heavy overcast. My kitchen cabinet doors are made from lightered pine dried in my kiln. There is NO sap or rosin bleed. Made a big batch of red oak flooring, worked nicely. As cheap as a solar kiln costs, build 2 or 3 small ones and stagger the loads. Use the search button to do a search, there's posts with pics and drawings.
I've built two and they work well, looking at building another 26 ft long. Buy the LT15, use it to saw lumber to build the kilns ;D

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I think I would vote for the kiln, also.  Knowing your personal time
will be so limited, the determining factor in my mind is that the kiln
can work extra hours without you (to differing extents, depending upon type). 
Another sawmill can not, unless you hire on help (another issue entirely).

Phil L.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Where's them pics, pineywoods?
:D

[ellmoe]

   Alot of good advice here. Particularily what Tom and Phil said. Do something to add value to what you do now. I think solar is a good option for you and like pineywoods said you can always build more than one. When you are successful with drying wood the leftover money/profits can then be used for a bandmill. I like the fact that the kilns is working when I'm not there. I wish I had employees like that! ;D

Mark

[brdmkr]

I have seen pics of pineywood's solar design.  I will likely build one of those someday as well.  I really like his setup and think the way his collector is set up is superior to other designs.  I still think I am leaning toward the Nyle kiln.  I think it would be more consistent regarding time in the kiln and temperature.  Of course it sounds like the PW solar design would definitely get hot enough to kill bugs and set pitch.  Plenty to think about!!!!!!!!!

[Tom]

Y'all  really need to study the heat of the kiln.  Heat treatment is different than drying.  The core temperature of the lumber has to be brought to 130 (some say 160).   If you are losing that on a cloudy day, or at night when there is no sun, you probably aren't reaching temperatures where you can be assured that the core of the lumber is treated.

[brdmkr]

What Tom said is my concern.  If I am drying for someone, I want to be able to assure them that the lumber got hot enough for long enough to kill critters.  I know that I have PPB in some pecan that I have cut.  To be honest, the little holes add character, but I want them killed and I want to know that they are dead.  If I paid someone to KD this lumber, I would want to know that they got it hot enough for long enough.  If I had a solar kiln, I would feel pretty good about doing it myself during the summer, but I would be concerned if charging a customer without knowing whether or not I met the temp requirement (especially during winter).

[ronwood]

Can you get the kiln temp up high enough with Nyle unit?

Ron

[flip]

With Tom on this, I'd go with a kiln.

[pineywoods]

Tom brings up a valid concern. This system will definitely get hot enough, some say too hot. How long it will hold the temp varies all over the place. We were quite surprised to find how much heat a big stack of boards will retain overnite in a well-insulated enclosure. In fact that's what brought on the addition of the de-humidifier unit. With a full load of lumber the interior wasn't cooling off enough at nite to condense out enough moisture, hence extending the drying time. How much the temp drops overnite will be affected by the size of the stack and species as well as outside temp. Red oak holds heat more than cypress. Some professors from the forestry dept at Louisiana Tech came over and instrumented arlcons kiln. Conclusions--it works BUT is somewhat different from most solar kilns and is definitely a whole different ball game when compared to conventional kilns. That pretty much matches our experience. We're still learning. Now looking  at the possibility of drying 8X10X26 ft cypress beams in a stretched unit.

[ARKANSAWYER]

 
              KILN!     

  Get a NYLE 200,  It will make you more money in the long run and after just a load or two you can buy the little bandmill.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

bdmkr,

I suppose there is nothing that says you can't supplement the
heat of a solar kiln.  It could be done near the end of the drying
cycle.

The idea would be to just heat the load for even six to eight hours -
just long enough to be sure you zapped the critters.  For example,
at mid-morning on a day which was expected to be sunny, close all vents
and activate  whatever the booster heat would be.    In late afternoon,
throw a blanket of insulation over the collector to hold the heat a little longer
than normal, just to be sure the heat had time to penetrate.

Someone out there has probably even come up with a solar booster idea.
Perhaps pineywoods' design already is "boosted."   If so, who needs
a separate booster heat source to set pitch or to sterilize?

Phil L.

[Tom]

The Southern Pine Inspection Bureau sets quality standards for Southern Pine manufacturing and grade marking. SPIB recently published Supplement No. 17 to the 1994 Standard Grading Rules for Southern Pine Lumber, providing the following definition for Heat Treated (HT) Lumber: ''HT'' (heat treated lumber) has been placed in a closed chamber with artificial heat until the lumber achieves a minimum core temperature of 56 degrees Centigrade for a minimum of 30 minutes. The lumber must be in the green condition at the time of heat treatment

.

For those who live in the USA, 56° Centigrade (Celsius) is 132.8° F. :D

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

So, we should suppose that the key to this issue is to
embed a probe in an inner board of a given kiln charge
and monitor that.   It's the time needed to get that heat
to penetrate which is the factor which would be hard to
predict.  It would be possible to estimate through experience,
after doing a couple charges of that species.

[Tom]

Yes, I think you understand.  It seems to me that a probe should be used every time since the time varies upon species, dryness of the wood, stickered or dead stacked and sizes of pieces, etc.

It is also indicated, in some studies, that the Heat Treatment makes the wood more brittle. That might be an indication that it not be overdone.  While guestimates might work perfectly well, it would take a probe attached to a recording device or closely monitored to produce a document that would verify the procedure.

Heat Treatment is becoming more popular and even required for shipment from one country to another and from one region of the USA to another.  Valid stamps are labels HT, for heat treated, and KD/HT, for Kiln Dried and Heat treated, but a hard copy record would authenticate the procedure.

[ADAMINMO]

When we heat treat our pallets we have to put a stamp on each pallet certifing that they have been heat treated to the proper specs. The stamp has ID numbers and letters that are registered to the company that done the heat treatment.This way if there is a problem with a pallet and they see critters in them they know where the pallet originated from. We have to heat treat pallets going overseas (Blade or parts shipments or crates for machines) , food service and things like that.

P.S. Make sure you do not have a cat sleepin in your kiln before you close the door to heat treat. That happen to a company that treated some pallets and sent to a food service plant. The cat was cooked inside some of the pallets.The cat ran in the kiln while the guy was loading a truck or getting some more pallets to load into the kiln. I think someone is on cat patrol during the kiln loading process now!

[Larry]

It would be possible to estimate through experience,
after doing a couple charges of that species.

Twelve years, maybe 25 or more charges, and 25,000 board foot or more...I never saw a bug walk out of my solar kiln.  I was much more concerned about a PBB flyby attack to my stored lumber, which happened twice.

I controlled my fan on the solar kiln with a line voltage thermostat that went to 110 degrees.  Problem was the fan would never turn off at night towards the end of the drying cycle in the summer.  I had to put the fan on a timer for summer time operation to get it to shut off at dusk.  I'm not really advocating a solar kiln...just pointing out the possibilities.  Low temperature DH kilns need supplemental heat to kill bugs...I used a resistance electric heater with my Ebac.  I think? with a Nyle you can run the unit heater...better check with Nyle.

I have no business sense but will comment anyhow.  For us small operators (manual mills & small kilns) the money is in niche markets.  It takes time to find one...iffen it was easy everybody would be doing it.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Well, there you go.
We have mentioned food - cooked cats.
:-\
My neighboring businesses have been feeding stray cats.  Guess where
they are living, except for coming out to eat the free food?  My woodpiles
and under everything with a hole under it!
:(
Maybe I need to provide some cats for somebody?  Anybody?

[beenthere]

What?? you would sell  give your neighbors cats away??   8) 8)

I have a neighbor who has the feral strays neutered (tutored as Paul says  ) and then turns them loose but feeds them. Seems some organization in CA has lots of money so pays Vet schools to neuter feral cats so they can continue to roam free.  I've heard the Audubon society is not too happy about it.

[Tom]

Neither would I be.  Feral cats are death on Quail populations and Rabbits can't hide like they can from a hawk, either.

I don't mean ill toward the cats, it's the people that turn them lose that should be educated.   I've got a healthy Orange one that is taking up at the house now.  I'm trying to discourage him but the wife feeds the barn cat outside and this cat, usually up front in the woods, has found the house and the feed.

There's three more up there in the woods by the street that I know of and I know they don't practice birth control.  The feral dogs help to keep the feral cats down, but Dang-it!, they get to be a problem too.   

Seein' as how they hang out around the ditch mostly, I figure the moccosins are keeping the population down some.  They wouldn't eat a grown cat, but they sure would kill it.  They could make a good meal or two off of the kittens though.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

My cat problem is a recent development (3 years?).

Until the businesses near me began to feed them, all
you would ever see would be a passing stray.  Now,
there must be ten or more. Normally, two or more
are expectant mamas, too, so there is a constant supply
of new ones.

And don't assume all cats bury their litter, either! What
a mess, if you don't watch your step in certain places.

The cure is simple.  If they would quit feeding, they would
wander away.

ER, what was this thread about, again?