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Bucking advice, please

Started by metalspinner, November 02, 2006, 02:36:58 PM

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metalspinner

I've got this oak tree blown over and need some bucking advice.  It is still attached at the rootball.

Here is a pic...




Is this the proper procedure?...

1. Trim the branch  where marked with red. I thought if some of this was left on it would control the direction of roll when released from rootball.

2. Release from rootball.

3.  If plan worked,  buck logs from tree.

The problem I am thinking about is that the log is resting on just two points - the rootball and the crotch way at the other end of the log.
You can see how it's elevated.  I can imagine the saw bar getting pinched whether I cut from the bottom or top of the log. ???

Thanks, Chris
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

boboak

   First of all make sure you have quite a few wedges handy.  I couldn't tell that much from your picture but the main thing is to get that log flat on the ground. Put a little run in from each side, make your top cut down just until it starts to pich,wedge it tight,put in just a little more side runs,make your undercut.  Stay light on your feet in case it swings on you.  I'm probably not explaining this very well but I'd be glad to try again if need be.
Sometimes you get things done faster if you do them slower

metalspinner

Boboak,
I followed you just fine.

I will be cutting this with a 20" bar, so cutting from both sides is needed.  The butt end is about 36". Can I cut all the way down on one side, wedge like crazy on that cut, then after starting the opposite side use the wedges.  The "opposite" side is the view of the pic.

This log is 50' to where it touches the ground at the crotch.  Will the wedges keep the kerf open under so much pinching pressure?  In other words, will the pinching pressure crush the wood around the wedge's and render the wedge's useless?

I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Tom

when you are taking the rootball off, don't let any children or pets be anywhere around the hole.  There will be a better than 50/50 chance that the stump will sit back up in the hole and crush whatever is under it.

If you cut from the side of the picture, it looks like the limb will help keep it from rolling toward you.  If you open the sides of the trunk, the side that is cut the deepest will usually move outwardly.  So, if the far-side of the trunk is cut some, it will give it reason to go that way.  I would then cut from the top about a bar width or until the kerf began to close.  Then I would drop down a coupleof inches and make a straight through plunge cut and cut downward to within a couple of inches of the bottom.  This should be enough holding wood to let you examine where it wants to go before you make any releasing cuts.  If all is OK, cutting the strap at the bottom of the log should cause it to separate and drop.

In any case, I'd be ready to move toward the rootball and away at the slightest motion.

metalspinner

Tom,
So the idea of leaving that far branch attached is a good one?
QuoteIf you cut from the side of the picture
You are referring to the releasing cut here?
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Tom

I think you will put yourself in more danger trying to take that pressure laden limb out than working with the trunk with it on.

I can't tell which side of the tree is uphill or down.  You need to stay on the uphill side.


In escence you are leaving a horizontal hinge when you make the plunge cut.  The releasing "tab" will be on the bottom of the log.

When you add kerfs, to the side you are trying to guide the horizontal direction that the log will move when it is released.  you can also tamper with the hinge to increase holding wood on one side or the other.

The tab on the bottom is what will keep the tree intact until you are certain of which way it is going to go.

You are the one who is going to be there and see where the movement is.  If the top kerf opens, you've got a different and maybe more dangerous stump.  If it stays closed the pressure will be put on the hinge so that the log will jump away from the stump when released.


metalspinner

Tom,

Is this an accurate diagram of your explanation?



The pic was taken from the uphill side.  This is the side I want to release the log from.

The limb is not touching the ground at the moment.  I can take off as much or little as needed right now.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Tom

yes, that is what I was talking about.  Your cut#1 needn't be so deep.  I'd make it deep enough that the bar can reach through when making the last plunge cut.  leave some more hinge on the #1 side.

If that limb is off of the ground, you could take it off.  It seems to me that it will keep the log from rolling toward you when it is released.  The log should open on the #1 side and fold away from you.

Ianab

You can also attack it something like this.



Plenty of wedges and a backup saw, just in case you have to cut your first saw out  :-\

Tom's idea of bore cutting both sides, leaving a hinge and holding wood is probably a good plan though. If you can remove the branch safetly first it would make the job simpler, as you are just making vertical 'felling' type cuts and dropping the whole mess straight on the ground. The twisting from that off centre branch complicates life.

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

metalspinner

Ianab,
That occured to me, too.  Seeing it in a pic clears it up in my head.    Once the cutting reaches a "critical" spot, the log will split.  But will the flat spot keep the log from rolling?  I need it to roll to lay flat for bucking the rest of the log.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Tom

Just stay on your toes, regardless of how you attack it.

"The best laid plans of mice and men, oft go awry."

rebocardo

A do a few of these a year (the big ones).

Best thing is to put logs or long thick branches under the trunk before you do anything. This will prevent you from getting the bar into the dirt and will help you roll the bucked logs later. If I had a choice, I would take the top off up to that big branch and roll as big of a log under the trunk as close to the root ball as possible.

This way you can hopefully ease enough pressure off the trunk so the trunk settles on a big round once the top is cut away. Then you can just buck rounds off the main trunk. If you have a high lift jack you usually can lift a tree enough to slide a big round under the trunk near the butt. Lay it on the flat side. Which takes pressure off the branch it is resting on so it is easier to cut.

Whatever you do, do not cut the branch the tree is resting on because you can jam your saw or worse, it snaps and takes your saw or leg out. Cut it off as part of a log or round.

How I get the big logs on the ground. Make an open face cut on the top. Make an open face cut on the bottom. Each should be about 1/4 of the way without making a movement of the tree. Start with a small shallow notch and then increase it until it is at least three inches wide. Then make each open face a square notch so if you stood back it looks like a H.

Inside the bottom of the H make several cuts with the top of your bar.  

Then move down a few feet towards the top of the tree and make several deep cuts to relieve tension at the top of the log. Start from the top and move to the butt doing this.

Move back to the H and from the top make several cuts that line up with the cuts on the bottom.  Put the saw in the middle of the notch and power through to a cut lined up with a cut from below.

If supported at the other end, it should drop cleanly or crack a bit and fall off.

Myself, I never get on my knees to do an undercut like they show in OSHA, I always assume the log or trunk/rootball is going to roll or barberchair. Stand uphill for the final cut. Cutting from two sides always assume the tree will rip and the log will roll towards you.

I want to be on my feet and not have my saw taken for a ride to the ground, hence my final cuts are usually from the top when cutting something supported on two ends.

What you do not want is for the tree to raise itself very high off the ground with 20-30 feet of trunk still attached. So, when you get 20-30 feet from the ball, cut as close to the ball as possible if you think it will flip back into the ground. Usually because there are several huge  unbroken roots acting like winch cables.

Remember those multiple cuts you made earlier?

If the tree is going to close in on your saw, you will see it because the gap in those previous cuts will close up before it squishes your saw. If they start to close, keep your saw running at full power and lift it slowly vertically out of the cut, do not pull it towards you!

Just go down the trunk further and relieve more tension or make the H wider so when it starts to close up (by the log lifting up on the top end) it can not close completely on your saw, it closes the previous kerfs first.

If it looks like the top of the H is going to close, then go make a very wide open face notch on the bottom. Do the same on the top. Very lightly cut on the top until the wood fibers rip and the log you are cutting rips away and slides under the butt end.

Just how I do something that big supported on both ends. Sometimes if the tree has a huge top (doesnt look like it) I cut the butt right at the root and then cut rounds off the butt end first and work towards the top. Then I pull/roll the top over with my 4x4 to get the big branches on the bottom until I have a nice log.

> Will the wedges keep the kerf open under so much pinching pressure

Yes, on a tree this size. Sometimes no on a larger tree, sometimes they get embedded into the wood enough so you can not pound them and sometimes the tree will close on both the wedge and the saw. Just because you have it wedged on the top, does not mean the saw will not bind on the bottom.

If you are cutting this enough to need serious wedge action, then what will happen is once the tree is cut enough to break free, when it slides down it will take the saw with it and possibly jam it between the log and butt end because the log will follow gravity. If you have to pound a wedge in with something heavier then a crescent wrench (which I carry in my pocket for my fuel caps) then you are doing something wrong with a tree on level ground.

imo, Very rarely do you need wedges while bucking logs/trees on level ground, only on inclines.

Now, if I was doing this, I would remove the top to the big crotch in the top picture and pile as much as I could under the trunk length to make bucking easier later. Then I would get a pole saw and make gradual cuts all along  the big branch close to the trunk and ground side, with the top of the saw, until it started to snap under weight and fold up and over the tree.

Hopefully it would start to rest on the stuff I piled under the trunk. Then I could just stand there and cut off rounds in short order.

Ianab

If the branch is supporting the log, leave it there, dangerous to try and remove it.
If it's not under any pressure I would take it out first as it will simplify the cutting and let you drop the log straight on the ground with no twisting going on.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Kevin

This is how I would cut a tree with shear where top bind is present.


metalspinner

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I am reading them all several times to come to a better understanding off the forces at work here.  It will be a week or so before I get to it, so this discussion can continue to develope before I head out.

When I left the log yesterday, the branch was suspended in the air about two inches.

BTW, diagrams are a great help! ;)
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

thecfarm

It was all ready mentioned,but again,watch that root ball.It might fall back into the hole.I always put limbs under the tree that I'm sawing on.Makes it easier to get a chain around it and around here if I run the saw into the ground I will hit a rock.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

PineNut

If the root ball does not fall back into the hole, you may want to give it a little push (with a tractor, not by hand).  I have had them stand up for a day or so and then fall back, especially dangerous if in an area where other people may be exposed to it.

Reddog

You will have trouble understanding it. But They show you well in the films how to cut lose from the ball.

On the left colum of the page you will see Film. Click that. Then below that heading will open two titles, watch both.

storm felling

http://www.skogforsk.se/KunskapDirekt/Templates/WMPage____18102.aspx
http://www.skogforsk.se/KunskapDirekt/Templates/WMPage____15452.aspx


Updated links 11/7/08

WDH

I see so many pictures of people operating chainsaws without the proper safety equipment.  I am in the forestry business, and you would be alarmed at how many experienced people get seriously hurt operating chainsaws professionally.  What I am saying is that you are probably not a professional, so by all means, acquire and wear the proper safety equipment.  That is a harhat with a faceshield, a set of saw-proof chaps, and steel-toed boots.  The tree that is lying on the ground under tension is one of the most dangerous trees to cut, so be very careful. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Kcwoodbutcher

I like the films- any chance there is an english version?
My job is to do everything nobody else felt like doing today

Dan_Shade

those videos are amazing....

to see how fast those guys work, wow....
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

metalspinner

Well, you guy's scared me straight. :D  No, I am not a professional...hence my willingness to ask for advice.  This is one of those times that my immediate reaction was to call for help.  Then I started head scratchin' and the macho-man in me thought I could figure it out.  I will hire someone and watch him and will let you guy's know how he did it.   Maybe we can have fun second guessing his procedure. :D
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

snowman

Hi metal, your pic reminds me of when i was a green horn timber faller.First i got my saw pinched, then i got my spare saw pinched then i took power head off 1st pinched bar and put on another bar, which i got pinched, then my falling partner came to help, got both his saws pinched.Wish id of had a camera for that.Hope you have better luck :D

sprucebunny

That website seems very informative. Does anyone know how to translate it ? I can't find an online translator for any of the Scandinavian languages.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

I knew I should have come by your place while I was in TN, MetalSpinner.

We coulda played with that Oak tree together!

Phil L.                       (But I wouldn't have had my big saws with me.)
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Kevin

Here's a picture from the Tree Buzz that demonstrates top bind on a wind throw.
You can see the space between the red line and the tree from end to end.
It's important to read the tree to determine what bind you are dealing with prior to cutting.


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