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Planting trees

Started by king_buba, July 15, 2003, 09:49:18 PM

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king_buba

Im considering planting arround 3 acres of black walnut next spring.  I've been researching this for a while but  I'm not sure if this is the form or where i should go with this question.  My goals are to be able to thin as needed and keep the area well maintained.  The plan is to clearcut the 3 acres in 35 years for retirement.  If anyone has any experience what spacing works?  does mixing black walnut with autumn olive really accelerate growth?   About how long will they take to reach veneer grade?  Ive herd 30 and 50.... does anyone really know?   I think tha'ts about it.  I hope someone can point me in the right direction, thanks.
Joe

Tom

Well Joe, you came to the right place.  We've got educated and trained foresters here who know all that stuff.   Give them a bit to find your post and you'll get an answer.   We might end up moving it to "ask the forester" or "Forestry and Logging" later but this "General" forum is a catch-all for anything. :)

beenthere

My recollection with walnut in plantations is more like an 80 to 100 year rotation, getting trees to mature veneer size. Maybe in the last 30 years that rotation age has been shortened, due to faster growth from fertilization or from being able to get veneer buyers to purchase walnut logs in smaller (like 15" small end diam) sizes.
Where are you getting your statistics from for growth rates that fast?  I would be interested in your plan.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

OneWithWood

Welcome to the forum king_bubba!

Plant your walnuts on 10' centers.  This will alllow you to be able to mow between the trees and will help the trees to grow tall and straight.  You will need to do some pruning in the early years to preserve the straightness and accelerate the growth slightly.  Have you looked at a soil map for your three acres?  Walnuts are particular and grow best on well drained deep soils (read - not clay).  There are highbred walnuts available but even those trees will take longer than 30 years to mature.  Of course you might be able to sell the cutting rights to the timber when you are ready to retire.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Jeff

According to K B's member info, he is in a prime area for walnut. Not to say that particular 3 acres is suited for them, but as an average that part of Michigan grows them well.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

king_buba

A true rotation is 80-100 years, but in 80-100 i'll be dead!  I can't sell them too soon or they won't have grown enough to make a profit.  That's where the 35-40 year comes in.  I BELIEVE that it takes about that long for black walnut to reach veneer.  It'll be smaller and about 18-20in diamiter at the large in so 16 or so on the small end..right????  Can anyone back this?

Also, has anyone ever planted autumn olive with trees of any kind?  I've herd it can help speeed growth, but i really don't know.

The soil is great.  Deep, well drained.  Pretty much a corner of a old cornfield.  The land has been in the family just sitting for some 20 years untouched.  There is some brush, like 2-3 trees already on it but fairly clear with no slope.

king_buba

OH yea, where's a good nusery to get them cheap?  I know I can get seedlings from the ingham county conservation districe for $0.50 a piece... but I have no clue how good they are.  Anyone had experience with them?  

Jeff

Walnuts are simple to grow from the nut. Find a good specimen tree and collect the nuts this fall. Put them in a covered container in an unheated out building or garage for the winter to keep the critters out of them. Make yourself a raised bed from ties and good soil this next spring and plant the walnuts. You will be surprised at the success you will have in generating your own seedlings.

My brother in law grew so many we had trouble finding people to take them all.

I think you are being way over optimistic on your time frame and your expectations for those trees within that framework.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Scott

You might want to contact the Walnut Council. Their 2003 annual meeting is in Pittsburg, Kansas ; July 27-30. The subject is Growing and Processing Quality Black Walnut.

Search the Forum Threads and Forum Links for more information on the Black Walnut Council.
~Ron

Minnesota_boy

Our county forester once told us that our aspen could be cut and be ready for the next harvest in 30 years.  I have watched one plot that is now 26 years and the trees are about 3-4" in diameter.  Gonna be a small harvest.  :D
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

king_buba

I've never grown any trees aoutide of just pines.  I honestly don't know about how fast tehy grow, but that's why i'm asking.  Does anyone know??         And thanks for all the info already.

king_buba

WOW i just realized what i typed and was thinking.  It's 45 years, NOT 35... that'll make a big difference!   oops.  It's been a long week.  So same as above only 45 years.

Bill Johnson

You'll have to watch your spacing on walnut.  They produce a chemical call juglen.  It tends to kill off everything else in close proximity.  This is a self defense mechanism that allows them to grow free of competition.

They are not really something that we grow up north where I am so this is information I'm repeating from memory.

The southern guys will be better prepared to speak to spacing.

Bill
Bill

Jeff

Is Bill Johnson! Is it really you Bill? How the hell is the Moose? Hows the wife? :D

Good to see ya on buddy. :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Tom

Black Walnut? Southern is relative, Bill.  Gee Whiz.......where you been?   I was just thinking of you today.

You need to get that truck in some towns that have stop lights and visit with us some. :D

Bill Johnson

Tom

I know its been a while since I've been here.  I finally broke down and purchased my own computer. Now I just have to find the time to log on regularly. :D :D

I've been searching the safety files and should have a bunch of information to post in a while.

Don't worry I'll be checking in regularly now.

Bill
Bill

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Bill Johnson

The only rule I have for contributing is that I have something meaningful :( to say.

This is the one place where everybodies opinion is important!!

Bill
Bill

Bill Johnson

Sorry King we've kind of slid off topic here for a while.  I'm sure somebody will pull us back to reality shortly.

This really is a great place to come for advice etc.

Bill
Bill

Bro. Noble

KB,

We have some walnuts that were planted about 45 years ago.  The guy figured they would do well along a stream in a little bottom field.  Problem was there is a deep gravel layer underneath and most aren't but 8 or 10 inches dbh.

All the talk you hear about big prices for walnut are for the big ones.  They need to be at least 18 inches and 24 is better if you want to get a decent price for them.  I think the wide growth rings from fast growing trees would also make them less valuable.

We plan on planting some on better sites  (will get seedlings from the state nursery).  It will be for our kids or grandkids though.  We sold a bunch of veneer logs last fall.  They were naturally grown on good sites for the most part.  I think most were over 80 years old.

The lower limbs need to be pruned to make  the clear logs for veneering.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

king_buba

I'm pretty set on how to prep the land, pruning, and everything all the way up through the 1st thinning.  I'll be back asking questions after that.  The only 2 questions I really have now are...  1)  How long unitl they'll be about 20in DBH on good firtle ground?  2)  What other trees can be planted every other tree in a row or something like that?

Thaks for all the help so far guys.  Finally found a place where people actually kno what there talking about.

Tom

Excuse me for butting in with this dumb question but......

I always wanted to interplant a tree that produce something good to eat but Pine is not conducive to interplanting, even with other pines. I have put a pear close to the plantation and have considered some "Big" blue berries in the plantation to replace the High Bush and Gall berries.  

If I had a plantation of Black Walnut, I think I would want a tree of sweet cherries or something like that every once in a while. Would that make much sense and would one of the commercial cherries produce an acceptable wood for anything  when tree harvest time came along?

Jeff

The commercial cherries I see up here are grown to grow cherries not wood. Short of trunk and bushy at the top
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

king_buba

What about pines or autumn olive?  Will the walnuts evensually kill them?

Bud Man

King Buba , What a wonderful legacy that will provide your children and grandchildren. Also, what a way to possibly instill family unity and also a love for nature and setting and achieving goals through family efforts. Seems you've given some thought to some of the necessary steps to making this a reality.   Of all the replies, I like Ron's the best so far, sure would be nice to have a copy of the results or minutes of the Walnut Council's meeting going on in Kansas !  Also there is a wealth of info available on the Net== Genetically superior seed sources, site preparation needs, seed bed preparation, proper thinning and pruning, proper plantation spacing, weeding, fertilizing, slope exposure, pathogens, .... etc.  Planning a Walnut grove or plantation is a lot more complicated than collecting 1,500 or so seed from the nearest available tree, stratifying them in the ground till spring and heeling them in the ground come spring at an  8x8 or 10x10 spacing.  For example your seed source should come from South of where your going to plant the trees to shorten the time till harvest, whether you're aiming for lumber or veneer. Also some seed sources are proven to bear fruit at a shorter turn around which is likely going to be the only income , other than the crushed shells, you'll receive for the next 50 years.  Lots to know to achieve the results you're wanting to leave your loved ones !  Don't get discourgaged about the time element, Don't think about it  "Make It Happen" , long before the results are to be realized in dollars you will be able to take a tremendous amount of pride in the progress that will come about and you're efforts will be appreciated.  We as humans, too often, are intimadated by the lifespan of a tree and just don't make the effort.  Much success in your endeavour !
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

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