iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Reason Not to Go with Three Phase Power ??

Started by ronwood, September 30, 2004, 01:34:32 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ronwood

Looking to build me a shed for my mill and woodworking equipment. I received a response from the local electric company yesterday stating that they would set me a pole and provide me with 3 phase power at no cost. Main power line is within 150 ft. of where I want to put my shed.

Is there any reason that anyone could think of that I should not go with 3 phase power? I need to check on the minimum monthly charge yet. Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.

Thanks
Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

Tom

Other than lack of portablility and the fact that I'm scared to death of electricity, I can't think of any reason not to take advantage of that. :)

You can always supplement other types of power.  You might not get the 3 phase option again.

Texas Ranger

Down  here  you can only get 3 phase on a demand meter, and when the demand meter cuts in the costs go out of sight, need to check on rates before you decide.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Norm

As long as the monthly minimum is not too high I'd say your one lucky guy to be able to get 3 phase power without an install fee. I really like having it on the farm here, makes a lot of things possible.

ronwood

Norm_F,

I am going to call them in the morning to verify the minimum monthly cost. If I recevied the right info when I call some months back it looked like it would work. Need to make sure that there is no hidden cost that I missed.

Texas Ranger,

What is the demand metter used for? I would assume the the meter is used to keep the peak power of the company to a reasonable level.

Tom,

On the lack of portablility are your talking about have 3 phase power tools and moving to another place that has single phase?

Thanks
Ron

Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

karl

The power co. here stopped "giving" poles and wire twenty years ago- better read the fine print.

I'd love 3 phase- lots of used machinery around and the price is right if you don't need to add a converter.
"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

Frickman

Man are you lucky Ronwood. The three phase runs past about a mile away from us, and we would have to pay to run the line all the way and guarantee a minimum monthly usage for so many years. It would actually be cheaper for me to put in a Cat diesel generator than have the three phase run in. If it's available, take it while you can get it.

The demand meter Texas Ranger talked about is a way for the power company to charge you for spikes in usage. In my area it even depends on the time of day. Most of the mills around here start up there motors before 6:00 AM when the demand on the grid is not as high, and they never shut them down all day unless something breaks.

Now I'm no electrician, but I've picked up on some things over the years. If any of you can correct me feel free to. The peak draw of current by an electric motor occurs at startup. An electrician friend of mine can install a "soft start" gizmo on some of the big mill motors. I guess it prevents the motor from drawing too much power at once by spreading the startup over a longer period of time. Another thing the big mills do is startup the biggest motors first, like on headrigs and chippers, and proceed down to the smaller motors. When you get a big surge from starting up the chipper, for example, you don't have any other motors online that are adding to the demand. Most of the mills have completely seperate entrances and meters for the motors and everything else, like lights. This way they aren't paying a high KW/HR charge just to run lights or a coffee maker.

One time I read an article about a company that put in a big grinder for processing woody debris for mulch. They only ran one shift, a midnight shift, because the power was cheaper then.

Hope some of this helps.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Tom

QuoteOn the lack of portablility are your talking about have 3 phase power tools and moving to another place that has single phase?
[/size]

Yep, that's what I meant.  :)

Corley5

I'd love to have 3 phase but it'll never happen.  Nearest three phase is 6 miles away.  If its available and they've offered it go for it
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Stan

Well I put in 30 years working for an electric utility, and Frickman is correct in that starting current can be many times as high a peak running current.
A demand meter indicates the peak draw as well as the total amount of electricity used.
Every utility would love for you to use off peak power, between 11 pm and 7 am, as that's when they have the most trouble generating a small enough amount of power to meet the load.
I may have been born on a turnip truck, but I didn't just fall off.

ronwood

karl,

Point well taken on the fine print. I want to make sure I cover all issues before going  ahead.

Thanks for all the responses.
Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

slowzuki

Our local utilitys demand meters use a 20 minute averaging so motor startup isn't an issue.
Ken

ronwood

New pole is in and transformers are set on the pole.  Been pricing the three phase meter panel, disconnect, and fuse panel. Prices are at least twice as high  :-\ as single phase. Any recommendation as to where to buy the meter panels, disconnect and fuse panel. Local Lowes and Home Depot don't carry much in the line of 3 phase.

Thanks
Ron

Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

Cedarman

There are several companies that sell used electrical equipment.  Also Talladehga Machinery Sales has electrical components.  We put in 3 phase several years ago and although more expensive than I thought it would be, it is still a good buy for us. 

Have you checked on voltage? Will you be running 240 or 480?  You will need a transformer if you have different voltage requirements.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Bibbyman

You can go to any of your local plumbing and electrical supply places like Graybar or Granger and get what you need. 

I had help of WM, Ronk (the phase converter people), loacal power company, a good 3ph electrician and Graybar in specing out what we needed.  Our case was much more complected because of the roto phase converter.

The only problem we've had is we blew two fuses one time - and I don't know why.  We were able to go to Westlakes and get replacemets.

Our Wood-Mizer has "soft starters" (don't know exactly what that is) but I figure they cut down on peak demand on startup.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Ironwood

Get the monthly minimum in writing! a friend of mine was given a verbal on the minimum only to have it triple when it was finally hooked up.

  I run a Phase converter built by a local motor shop with my salavaged 30hp motor and switch gear, total cost $500. I plan to install a 100hp Roto-Phase brand when I add on to my shop, found it at a local "high-tech scrap dealer" for $400.  Don't rule out local scrap dealers as some will still allow you to look around and buy panels, motors, switches, forklifts, machines, .............................you get the idea. I call it "going shopping" it usually requires a whole day and at least a one ton flat bed to haul home my buys. :D


                  Reid
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

trim4u2nv


You can make a lot more sawdust with 3 phase.  Try Select equipment company in Kokomo IN or EBAY for cheap 3 phase parts.

Ed_K

 I was quoted $15 g's to run 3 phase from a 1/4 mile away  >:(. That was 3yrs ago, bet they'll want more next time I ask.
Ed K

FeltzE

Ron,
Keep us in the loop on your progress. I for one have looked at it but havn't scoped out all the issues.

Eric

Fraxinus

Quote from: Tom on September 30, 2004, 01:55:34 PM
I'm scared to death of electricity
:D  Tom, I'm not even convinced that there is any such thing as electricity. :-X  And I work for an electric cooperative.
If you are serious, get that 3 phase power.  Sounds like you have a good thing with your utility.  Much better power than single phase or with a converter.
Grandchildren, Bluegrass music, old tractors, trees and sawmills.  It don't get no better'n that!

Ironwood

I cannot understand why more folks don't run converters. There is no hokus pokus about this. It is simple and works. We have numbers of "country shops" running  3-phase. I could probably name 10-20 within 20 milee of my place. Some small, some with 5 employees. The converters range from rope pull start-ups (no pony motor), pony motor starts to capacitor start. Mine are capacitor start with momentary switches and red warning lights to let me know they are running as they are outside and I cannot hear if they are running while I'm inside. It's not magic and I am not an electrical engineer or electrician.

              Reid
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

ronwood

Update!!

Three phase power is in and working. Went with 240V delta wiring on the pole transformers. Provides me with 120 volts single phase to ground on 2 legs. The third leg is 208 volts with respect to ground.  The power company calls it the wild leg. No single phase can be attached to that leg. Wire up 3 phase across the three legs. 

Could have went with 208V wye configuration. Would have let me balance the single phase load across each of the three phases but would have to only 208 volts  instead of 240 volts. 

Now I need to get some 3 phase equipement. My dad is giving my son a milling machine that will work nicely.

Cost of the power  is the same has my residential power. They (Cuiver River Electric) has a service availiablility fee that will run me about $30 per month. 

Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

Bibbyman

Now you just need to turn that LT40HDG25 into an LT40HDE25.  Best way to do that is to call WM... ;D  (and there are a few used ones around).
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

mike_van

Ron, kind of new here, I missed this thread when it started, but here's some of what I know.  Here in Ct,.  demand on commercial service [like yours] is measured every 15 minutes by the meter, your bill will reflect the highest of these readings.  In most cases, this is also your "minimum" monthly bill, IE - The company is charging you to have X ammount of KW available, even if you don't use any electricity that month.  This charge scares a lot of potential users away.  But, that out of the way, as was said, there are tons of used 3 phase motors, starters, and machines out there, many at good prices. I dont have my book handy, but a 10 hp 3 ph draws 28 amps, where as a 10 hp single ph is 52 I believe. You can run smaller wire with the lower amperage.  I have the 208 3 ph on my barn, I may never have got in this business without it. My mill, planer, milling machine, etc. run off it.  The only problem I had when I switched was my welder [240] was terrible on 208. But, I really lucked out - A gas station being demo'ed had a dry type 208 - 240 transformer I got for free!!!  Good luck with it - Any ???? We will try to get answers for you [employed by CL&P for 33 years]  10 months to go !!!!!  :)
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

ronwood

Bibbyman,

I often thought of that but right now I still mobile. Would prefer to be stationary. Sure would be nice not to have the gas motor to deal with.

Price of the electric mills that I seen on sawmill exchange looks good.

mike_van,

It is my undersatnding that the service availability charge is part of the minimum. The electric company here is much more flexible than some of the other power companies in the area such as down in St. Louis. The power company is a coop.  I hope that I understood the engineer completely when I set it up. If not I might be in for a big surprise.
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

Thank You Sponsors!