chemicals used in a timber

[Randy88]

First off I'm wanting first hand experience from those that have done it before and how things turned out.   

We have a family 20 acre timber plot, been in the family for 93 years now, its been a source of lumber for personal use, firewood and also logging over the years.   

I've asked questions in the past about getting red oaks growing again, and a host of other questions, this time around its about stinging nettles, the timber is full of them, they get about 4-7 feet tall and there's not a inch of the timber that's not covered during the summer, has been this way all my life, my dad and grandpa both told me all of their lives its how it has been.   

This last summer I drove around in there and sprayed a very weak solution of 2-4d to knock them down so we could cut firewood, since I had the time and help that week I wanted to do it, sort of by necessity we knocked down the nettles.   

Sorry this is getting long winded, but after chatting with a forester locally, and him knowing of the timber, we discussed what things we've done to get oak started, along with walnut and cherry, his personal opinion was, I was going above and beyond to get stuff to grow, doing everything right and then some, with very poor results, his opinion was the nettles were my issue, they were outcompeting the seedlings every year and starving them for sunlight and until I did something with the nettles, I was fighting a losing battle, which brought about the discussion of chemicals in the timber.   

He told to do a very weak solution of 2-4d like I'd been doing, my mixture was half rate of his recommendation and do the whole timber for a few years, then try again to replant some more oak seedlings.   

Now not to sound harsh, I also farm and have busted my rump working to get things going in this timber, the last thing I want to do is cause more damage than the good I'm trying to do, what's others opinions of spraying in the timber, I hate to wake up one morning to find those tree's we did get to grow all dead as well, is the nettle thing a real possibility................to me it makes some sense.  I'm wanting opinions and experience on doing this.     

He also recommended roundup, claimed it really didn't harm the tree's at all, now I've sprayed many a thousands of acres of crops over the years, tens of thousand if I really counted, but never a timber and to say the least it scares to beezeebers out of me even think of the damage it could do.   Thanks in advance.

[WDH]

Roundup spray on the nettle foliage will not hurt the trees as long as you do not slop roundup all over the tree's bark. 

[beenthere]

+1
Roundup works mainly on what is green, young, and broad leaved ...

Spray the nettles when they are small and try to get ahead of them for a couple years so your seedlings will survive.

[John Mc]

I used RoundUp on cut stumps when treating buckthorn, but I have to use a rather high concentration to have any effect (over 25% glyphosate). My impression is that at the low concentrations used for foliar spray, you won't damage a large tree by accidentally getting a bit on the bark of the trunk. You can hurt seedlings and saplings if you get it on enough of their foliage.

One of the things I've tried when I have a carpet of buckthorn seedlings is spraying them when they first green up in the spring. They tend to green up before everything else, so damage to other species is minimized (though I still try to target the spray). The glyphosate does not have a lot of "carryover", so it tends not to hang around to damage stuff that isn't green yet. It has worked fairly well the couple of times I've tried it. Unfortunately, where there is a carpet of buckthorn, there is usually a pretty good seed bank in the soil as well, so it takes more than one treatment to make progress in wiping it out.  I haven't done a lot of this, since I try to minimize the use of chemicals, and when I do I try to target it very closely (hence the cut stump treatments).

I don't know if there is a time when stinging nettles are green and growing, but not the species you want to save, but if there is, that's when I would consider using chemicals (particularly chemicals like RoundUp/glyphosate that don't carry over)

[mesquite buckeye]

I would try to wait until the spring wildflowers have gone to sleep if that could be timed.

I think the real solution is to find out why the nettles like it so much there. There may be a way to use timed short term heavy grazing if you could time it right with an animal that likes to eat nettles.

This really works on poison ivy. Cattle relish it.

[curdog]

Roundup will be fine in your standing timber. I spray roundup (actually accord) over hardwood seedlings when machine planting fields.http://www.clemson.edu/extfor/herbicide%20prescription%20manual/herbicidemanual.htm
Here's some info from clemson on herbicides.

[Southside]

Not trying to make a political statement here, and the only tree hugging I do is with my Fab-tex right before it cuts it down, but have any of you seen just how deep rooted Round-up residue is becoming in our food supply, and how many plants are becoming resistant to it?

I believe that part of the reason the soil in the wooded areas has so much more organic matter than in open fields where high residue is left behind is due to the increased biological activity that is alive in the soil there vs what has been effectively sterilized in our row crop land.   

I hate to think that it will be the asbestos, DDT, or Thalidomide of our generation. 

[John Mc]

Southside Logger - I'd like to learn more about that. Can you recommend any good links?

I saw one article a couple of year ago about glyphosate, but can't recall the source. I know the marketing for a long time was that it had no carryover, and started breaking down on contact with the soil. Things I've heard more recently seem to indicate that isn't the case.

[Southside]

Hi John,

I read a few articles on it over the winter, I will see what I can find.  I remember the same immediate breakdown claims but personal observation seems to indicate a different impact.  Sorry for the hijack.  Back in the mid '90s I was at a training when they were discussing aerial forestry spraying, I don't remember who the girl was that was giving the info but she was saying Roundup was safe, did not migrate, etc.  She was also very pregnant at the time.  One of the other guys asked her if she would be willing to drink water from a stream that came out of a clear cut that had been sprayed given her obvious condition.  It really struck me how much she stammered and stuttered around that answer, guess it was when I first started to ask myself if all was as it appeared to be. 

[beenthere]

Hi John,

I read a few articles on it over the winter, I will see what I can find.  I remember the same immediate breakdown claims but personal observation seems to indicate a different impact.  Sorry for the hijack.  Back in the mid '90s I was at a training when they were discussing aerial forestry spraying, I don't remember who the girl was that was giving the info but she was saying Roundup was safe, did not migrate, etc.  She was also very pregnant at the time.  One of the other guys asked her if she would be willing to drink water from a stream that came out of a clear cut that had been sprayed given her obvious condition.  It really struck me how much she stammered and stuttered around that answer, guess it was when I first started to ask myself if all was as it appeared to be.

Seems only natural that someone (regardless of being female and pregnant) would stutter and stammer over a broad, loaded question such as asked. Many, many variables involved in drinking water from a stream, none of which involve the possible chemical spray used.

There always is someone ready to tout the scary side of chemicals. The other scary side is where would we be without the chemicals being sprayed? Might get pretty hungry, or see many more people starve. There will be some real tough questions for the generations following behind us. For us, we are here only a short time...

[Southside]

Hi John,

I read a few articles on it over the winter, I will see what I can find.  I remember the same immediate breakdown claims but personal observation seems to indicate a different impact.  Sorry for the hijack.  Back in the mid '90s I was at a training when they were discussing aerial forestry spraying, I don't remember who the girl was that was giving the info but she was saying Roundup was safe, did not migrate, etc.  She was also very pregnant at the time.  One of the other guys asked her if she would be willing to drink water from a stream that came out of a clear cut that had been sprayed given her obvious condition.  It really struck me how much she stammered and stuttered around that answer, guess it was when I first started to ask myself if all was as it appeared to be.

Seems only natural that someone (regardless of being female and pregnant) would stutter and stammer over a broad, loaded question such as asked. Many, many variables involved in drinking water from a stream, none of which involve the possible chemical spray used.

There always is someone ready to tout the scary side of chemicals. The other scary side is where would we be without the chemicals being sprayed? Might get pretty hungry, or see many more people starve. There will be some real tough questions for the generations following behind us. For us, we are here only a short time...

I was really not trying to open a can of worms with this, but to answer your question we are able to achieve higher yields on our farm without chemical use than our conventional neighbors. Without chemicals there would be a lot fewer mega farms and a lot more employment and entrepreneurs in agriculture,  not starving masses as Monsanto would like us to believe.

I guess you can equate it to why the small band mills can get a higher yield and value out of a log over the big production mills, the devil is in the details as they say.

[Clark]

Round-up...and how many plants are becoming resistant to it?

Considering how Round-up works, it would require plants evolving a new way to perform photosynthesis. Granted, there is C4, C3 and CAM photosynthesis but I'm quite certain Round-up takes 'em all out. I would need links, high quality links at that, to believe that any plants are naturally "becoming resistant to" Round-up.

Clark

[John Mc]

It's a commonly known fact that some weeds are becoming resistant to RoundUp. Ask some farmer friends. Farmers in some areas have experienced this themselves, and others in areas which don't have the problem (yet) are generally aware that the problem exists.

Or, here, let me google that for you

[Randy88]

Any chemical used by the mass's over an extended period of time will develop resistance in plants, roundup is no different, there are weeds around me other farmers are having issues with, roundup no longer kills them, but actually waters them and they perk up I'm told by those battling certain weeds.   

I was planning on using flood jet boomless nozzles on the back of my sprayer, covering a 50 foot swath at a time through the timber and what the forester told me to do with 2-4d even at a reduced rate, just avoid the oaks we have in tubes now the best I can.   

As for why stinging nettles bother in this timber, I asked the forester and he told me, he had no clue, certain timbers in this are have them, others not, no apparent reason for why was what he told me, I've asked the chemical experts, but timber is a bit out of their area of expertise, again no answer as to why.   

Stinging nettles go from just out of the ground, to head high in a weeks time if the conditions are right, so timing is critical to get it done before they shade out debris and I can't see what I'm driving over.   

[Southside]

Round-up...and how many plants are becoming resistant to it?

Considering how Round-up works, it would require plants evolving a new way to perform photosynthesis. Granted, there is C4, C3 and CAM photosynthesis but I'm quite certain Round-up takes 'em all out. I would need links, high quality links at that, to believe that any plants are naturally "becoming resistant to" Round-up.

Clark

Clark - come down south and look at a nasty little plant called Palmer Amaranth and its expansion over the past decade, yes plants do evolve and quite quickly. 

[Southside]

Any chemical used by the mass's over an extended period of time will develop resistance in plants, roundup is no different, there are weeds around me other farmers are having issues with, roundup no longer kills them, but actually waters them and they perk up I'm told by those battling certain weeds.   

I was planning on using flood jet boomless nozzles on the back of my sprayer, covering a 50 foot swath at a time through the timber and what the forester told me to do with 2-4d even at a reduced rate, just avoid the oaks we have in tubes now the best I can.   

As for why stinging nettles bother in this timber, I asked the forester and he told me, he had no clue, certain timbers in this are have them, others not, no apparent reason for why was what he told me, I've asked the chemical experts, but timber is a bit out of their area of expertise, again no answer as to why.   

Stinging nettles go from just out of the ground, to head high in a weeks time if the conditions are right, so timing is critical to get it done before they shade out debris and I can't see what I'm driving over.   

Randy88 -

Years back I had my herbicide applicators certification - but have not kept up with it for over a decade now, that being said I know nothing about the nozzles you are speaking about but do know that when applying 2,4-D you need to have a much larger droplet, lower pressure I think, and different nozzle than with Roundup, otherwise you many have a tremendous drift and over application issue. 

[Randy88]

Southside Logger, the nozzles are not new, I've had mine for a couple decades, each spreads an arch pattern, very large droplets, the largest you can get, each nozzle can shoot about 25 feet each way on the back of the sprayer, I've sprayed about every chemical available at one time or another, works great in pastures and wooded area's for thistles, as for drift, its not really an issue with these tips, especially in a timber or pasture situation.     Yes 2-4d can pickup and travel in the right conditions, vaporize and drift, but this early in the season and since its in a timber, its not that sweltering heat and direct sunlight issue's as one would find in field conditions.   It would help greatly to have a shot of rain a day or so later, even a few hours later would ideal, but doubtful I'd ever time it that close.   

As for pasturing this timber, not going to happen, too many different neighbors, none willing to fence at all, no critters left of my own anymore anyhow, no reliable source of water, any livestock would probably be stolen in hours of being put out there, and as they say it goes downhill after that, those were the good points to mention. 
   

[enigmaT120]

Considering how Round-up works, it would require plants evolving a new way to perform photosynthesis. Granted, there is C4, C3 and CAM photosynthesis but I'm quite certain Round-up takes 'em all out. I would need links, high quality links at that, to believe that any plants are naturally "becoming resistant to" Round-up.

Clark

As soon as Monsanto started making Roundup Ready crops through GE, it was inevitable that the genes would get into wild weeds.  I just hope my poison oak doesn't get that way.

[mesquite buckeye]

It really doesn't work that way. Certain weed species are naturally somewhat resistant to roundup and as the weak get killed the resistance gets stronger. A gene isn't going to jump from a corn or soybean plant into an amaranth. To do that you need special technology usually involving a bacteria that has been specially selected for the purpose.

[Claybraker]

I found some data listing the relative effectiveness of a few herbicides that should be helpful. It looks like glyphosate is probably your best bet, cost wise and safety wise. This was done in pasture, so some of the things listed aren't labeled for forestry use. There are formulations of Remedy (triclopyr ester) that are labeled for forestry.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ag252