Log Entryway

Walt900 · August 17, 2010, 06:57:16 PM

Hello,

I have been posting some questions in Drying and Processing regarding my log entryway. I now have a construction question.

I have the 16" ERC logs in the ground. Next step is to form a concrete base around the logs for the rock work. Should I place the concrete right up to the logs or should I leave a space around the logs? I thought about leaving an 18" x 18" open area around the 16" logs. My concern is rain making its way into that opening since it will be a month before the rock work.

Concrete base will be 38" x 42" x 5" deep.

shinnlinger · August 17, 2010, 10:00:06 PM

Walt, I really have no idea what you are asking, but did you directly bury your posts? That sounds like a rot/bug fest to me even if it is cedar. Is your concrete forming a cup to further trap moisture????

Walt900 · August 18, 2010, 07:41:06 AM

Hi Shinnlinger,

Yes, eastern red cedar posts are direct bury. But first, the two vertical posts were treated with a wood preserative, then coated with a post waterproofing sealer.

In the bottom of the whole is gravel, and about 8 inches around the posts.

The vertical posts will have rock work to cover the posts from ground level up to 5 feet. To support the rock work, I need a concrete base. The base will be 38 inches wide by 42 inches long.

Could I place the concrete in the form all the way around the posts? That is directly in contact with the posts, or should I leave a gap around the post?

shinnlinger · August 18, 2010, 07:53:20 AM

I would of probably have put the posts on concrete vs burial, but suppose you could treat the edges with preservative or wrap the posts in something like synthetic tarpaper. If you were worried about trapping moisture, cedar breather might be a good wrap.

Jim_Rogers · August 18, 2010, 10:46:31 AM

Walt:
Welcome to this section of the forum.

I would leave a gap....you never know....

Jim Rogers

Walt900 · August 19, 2010, 07:56:08 AM

Thanks guys. I'll plan for a space around the logs.

meddins · August 19, 2010, 08:39:42 AM

I would also leave a gap.

I know ERC doesn't move much but it will move some with the humidity going up and down. This will cause any masonry right up against the wood to crack. Been there, done that. :-[

How will you cap the stone column off? If you have a 1" gap between the stone column and the post you'll need to close that off somehow when you get to the top. Maybe run the cap stone over the gap, up to the post, and caulk it...hmm.

Or you could forgo the really hard commercially available mortar mix and use straight lime and sand to build your stone column. Could probably go right up to the cedar post. It's a little bit more flexible, and it's self healing. Small cracks in lime/sand mortars fill back in on their own..

M.E.

Walt900 · August 19, 2010, 11:30:55 AM

Hi Meddins,

I'm leaving that up to the rock mason but I'll be sure we have a good plan before proceeding.

Maybe expansion joint material between the log and rock top, then cap the expansion joint with a good brown colored silicone caulk?

I did ask for weep holes in the base of the rock column for moisture drainage.

shinnlinger · August 19, 2010, 08:06:14 PM

look at cedar breather, it might be just what you want to wrap that post....

witterbound · August 20, 2010, 12:41:42 PM

I'd dig them up and put them on top of the concrete. Otherwise the bottoms will surely rot over time. I think the gap, whatever size it is, will act like a bathtub.

Walt900 · August 23, 2010, 02:25:55 PM

Thank you for the tip Witterbound, but the logs are now in the ground.

The logs received a three day soak in a copper based wood preserative. Then two coats of a post water sealant. Lastly, the logs were placed on top of six inches of wash gravel, then backfilled with the same rock.

They may rot some day but I do believe that day has been extended a bit.

witterbound · August 24, 2010, 11:59:39 AM

Hope it works out. Sounds like it's going to be a beautiful entryway.

Walt900 · August 26, 2010, 01:09:50 PM

I'll try to post a picture once I have one re-sized to the maximum upload kb.

Next question. What is the preferred way of attaching logs to each other? Direct bolt or scribe and bolt?

Here is a link to an entry way similar to what I am building.

LINKS TO OFF SITE PHOTOS ARE NOT ALLOWED

I have the vertical and horizontal logs in place. My next step is to add the diagonal logs. I can drill holes and attach the diagonal logs with 3/4" all-thread, the simple way. Or, I can scribe the logs then attach using the all-thread.

Which would be the preferred method?

Walt900 · August 27, 2010, 11:45:56 AM

Quote from: Walt900 on August 26, 2010, 01:09:50 PM

LINKS TO OFF SITE PHOTOS ARE NOT ALLOWED

Ok, sorry, I missed that note.

For future reference, can I post links to other sites? Since many sites have photos, how is that handled? Main page link is ok but not directly to a photo?

Back to the scribe question, in this application, is the scribe providing any benefits?

Jim_Rogers · August 28, 2010, 01:55:10 PM

Walt:
If you're referring to a photo, that is not yours, then you can post a link to someone else's site for us to use to go there and see their photo.

If it is your photo then you need to create an album here; within the Forestry Forum site, and put your photo into your album. And then you can post a link here to your photo.

Some people do a "screen capture" of someone else's photo and then put it in their album and then post it here. The owner of the "screen captured" photo could be upset, if they ever found their photo being used without their permission, but chances are they will never know. If a "screen captured" image has a copyright tag in it, then it shouldn't be used by any "screen capture" method and posted here.

Jim Rogers

Walt900 · September 01, 2010, 04:39:38 PM

Here, (hopefully) is a picture of my ERC log entryway.

The next step is to add two diagonal logs which will go from the above the top horizontal log, down and outward across the two vertical logs. This will require that I cut two saddle notches (?) in each diagonal log. I have never scribed or cut a saddle notch, so I could use some pointers.

I have searched the net for a video showing how the scribe is made, but have found no help. I have seen a few video showing the notch being cut with a chainsaw.

My other alternative is to bolt the logs without a saddle notch.

witterbound · September 02, 2010, 10:14:28 AM

Sure would have been easier if you'd cut and fit the braces before your put it up. At this point it's going to be difficult to scribe and fit the braces because you can't move the post or beam to place the brace into a mortice or housing, and you're going to be working up in the air, and upside down. It seems that your only option (other than just lag bolting which wouldn't look good unless you scribe the end of the braces to fit your posts and beams) is to cut your "saddle notches" and slide the brace in from the side. In this case, you'll need to square off the ends of your braces so they fit your notches.

Walt900 · September 02, 2010, 10:26:17 AM

Hi WB,

Yep, I did consider that problem. This is my first attempt at building with logs so I'm learning. My concern was pre-notching and then discovering that notch would not line up once the logs were in the ground.

Do you have any pictures or drawing that show what you are describing? I'm lost.

What I was planning was to only notch the diagonal logs with a two to three inch deep cut-out. The vertical and horizontal logs would not get cut. I do agree it will be a bit difficult. I hope I can get a few tips on how to do the scribe.

Here again is a link to a web site showing what I am attempting. I can't tell from the straight on view if the braces are notched.

http://www.tjswood.com/Slideshows/Log_Entry_Gates/slides/Gates%20011.html

icolquhoun · September 02, 2010, 01:11:27 PM

look at picture "6" on that site and you'll see the braces are slightly notched.
There are many ways to skin the cat, but an easy method would be:

Since these are heavy logs and you'll not want to be scribing/cutting anything in the air, you could always make a template out of cardboard, both male and female. These could be roughly 1" diameter less than what the vertical logs are. So if your vertical logs, where you anticipate the braces to intersect are say 14", make the templates with a 13" diameter. Make the upright a perfect circular portion (using the male template) that on the interface is 13" dia. Now use the female template to make the back of the brace the same 13" diameter. If done right, you wont be trying to keep eveything in place while you scribe in the air, and it will not be visible unless you're really close. You do have to have your angles and measurements pretty much spot on, but it's just one method.

witterbound · September 02, 2010, 03:03:41 PM

I like icolquhoun's method. Much better than what I was thinking.

Walt900 · September 02, 2010, 04:18:22 PM

I read Icolquhoun's suggestion a few more times and it is clearer as to what he is suggesting. I think it might be easier than hoisting the logs and stabilizing them to mark the scribe.

Actually I did use a plywood template to make the circular cuts in the horizontal log so the verticals could be recessed.

I just made another template with scrap 1x6 to test the angle needed in the top of the braces. My cad drawing shows 124 degrees, or 62 degree cut on each log. I'll be sure to do a test cut on scrap before I cut the logs.

Thanks for the help. I'm sure I'll have a few more questions.

woodbowl · September 17, 2010, 01:45:28 PM

Quote from: shinnlinger on August 18, 2010, 07:53:20 AM
suppose you could treat the edges with preservative or wrap the posts in something like synthetic tarpaper. If you were worried about trapping moisture, cedar breather might be a good wrap.

I've never understood how wraping the base of wood with anything could keep moisture out while it is in the moist ground. Please explaine the tech side of this.