Butt rot in eastern white pine

[jackpine]

My neighbor just had about 10 acres logged off, only the white pine.

This is river bottom land but drained, no standing water except early spring.

There were pockets of butt rot where almost every tree had it, regardless of age or size. Trees ranged from 10" dbh to 28" dbh. No more than 100 ft. away from one of these pockets the trees would be good. We were wondering if anyone has any ideas about the cause?

A clue maybe? In spite of many large old pines there were almost no new young ones. In my yard on top the bank the ewp re-seed like crazy but don't seem to in the bottoms below.

The remaining trees are primarily red maple with some cherry,hackberry,oak and slippery elm.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

[Stephen_Wiley]

Even though 'no' standing water has been observed - just beneath the surface crust could be very wet resulting in an anaerobic state. This would be a primary cause of decline leading to very stressed trees.

By your description of 'pockets' and 'lack of regeneration' I would begin to look for fungal inoculation signs.

Have you noticed any  conks on or near the tree? You may not notice them right away as they will be dark color this time of year.  If you have extreme duff/liter you may need to move it to find evidence.

The fungal causal agent in this case would be opportunistic due to a poor growing environment.

You may want to seek the help of a district /community forester to examine the area to ascertain if there are other factors e.g. micro-climate conditions or to identify fungal agents and to recommend the best silvicutural practices for this specific area.

[jon12345]

Eastern White Pine is a pioneer species, so you probably won't see any regeneration in a stand.  A majority of white pine you'll notice is dominant or codominant in the canopy, it's not by accident, they were most likely there first.

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm not so sure about that.  I have seen a lot of instances where white pine was in the understory.  USFS had a research paper out about white pine regeneration.  Best if it sits in the understory for about 10 years, then remove the overstory to release the pine.  I've tried it, but you need a good logger.

I like Stephen's response.  With it being so close to the river, the root development will be mainly lateral.  The watertable is pretty high in this situation.

Regeneration problems could be from spring flooding.  Seedlings get washed out before they are established.

[Jeff]

Many many times you see it as the understory in groves of oak. I may have a picture, if not I know where I can take one.  I have been told, but I cant remember he reference, but much of Michigan's vast White pine forests from the logging eras were thought to have been preceded by an ancient hardwood forest.

Found a poor example photo as its not very large, but you can see the white pine with the oak over story.

[SwampDonkey]

I never see EWP here under hardwood canopy. Sometimes it will grow on a disturbed site in a hardwood stand. I find it growing under aspen, red maple, white birch, balsam fir mixes. Sometimes find it in cedar stands where fir is decadent and some cedar are uprooting, but usually it's a cedar site that supports yellow birch. I've even seen nice white pine growing in fens or even on high spots within a bog. White pine is intermediate in shade tolarance and it's desireable to grow it in partial shade until pole sized before release to get clear staight stems and help deter the white pine weevil. Almost 100 % of EWP regenerating on openings in full sun are attacked by the weevil. We call them cabbage pine.



I was wondering about those pine with but rot. I was thinking they might have had some ice damage if near a river or stream that freezes. The spring runoff could force ice out into the flood plain and scare the trees when they were younger. I think once the trees get much older the bark may be too thick to damage them. White pine will survive low to moderate fires for instance. Any evidence of old scars?

[jackpine]

Stephen, you may have part of the answer here as this this land was once a tag alder swamp. About 40 years ago it was drained by digging some ponds and a drainage ditch. The sand from the ponds was spread out over the remaining ground in a relatively thin layer and that is where the majority of the pines took root. Under that thin layer is the original "muck" that you can sink a skidder into as the logger found out!

About the re-generation of white pine. I have some property that when I bought it in 1980 was a mature stand of black and pin oak whith a handful of large pine. No understory, you could see for 100 yards through the woods. Now you can't see 20 ft. for all the white pine growing under the oaks. The oaks are now dying of oak wilt and will have to be removed but doing so will damage a lot of the understory pines.

[SwampDonkey]

We don't have oak forests up my way. When I talk hardwood it's sugar maple, beech, white ash forests. Oak won't even grow in under them for very long. Our oak are very sparcely distributed along the river valley. That green carpet I'm standing in my signature photo is mostly sugar maple and beech seedlings. Not even balsam fir in there and they (fir) are very shade tolerant.

[jackpine]

SwampDonkey  Nothing seems to deter the white pine weevil around here >:( As soon as you release the white pine from the understory they attack them.

I have a small stand of white pine here at home that looks exactly like the picture on page35 of the Dec/Jan issue of Sawmill & Woodlot magazine. The only good thing by the time they are released and attacked they are tall enough to have a good butt log (or logs).

[Greg]

Is it even commercially viable to harvest white pine?

Timberframers love that stuff, and there a niche markets for timbers. But for lumber, I don't think the logs go for squat - based on logs prices I've seen quoted here.

Greg

[SwampDonkey]

There's good money in white pine sawlogs, but only for the best of the best.

$500-600 thousand here. So basicly they want you to high grade your best trees. Same old storey.

[Ron Wenrich]

For nearly clear pine stock, we get over $1/bf for the green.  That's a little less than red oak.  For pine cabin stock, we're gettin $.50, which is better than ties.  We can easily sell dimension stock for $.40, which is better than pallet. 

And, you can buy pine for $.10-.15 on the stump.  Everyone has gone nuts over hardwoods because of the easy availability.  Check these guys out - Kuhns Brothers Log Homes.  http://www.kuhnsbros.com/

I know these guys.  In the past, I've sold them timber, and I know their procurement forester.  They started out when nobody cut pine.  It was considered junk wood.  The stuff that others left in the woods.  They were in an area that had tons of pine, so they created a market.

There is a market for pine, but you have to work at it.  The differential between stumpage and sales price is pretty good for pine, and probably comparable to red oak.  You just don't get any veneer.  And production costs are about half of oak costs. 

[SwampDonkey]

In my particular local we don't cut much, unless for personal use. The reason is because it's very sparse and to make up a load involves coordination between alot of producers to land the wood in a central wood yard and have it trucked from there in a timely manner before it spoils (during warm seasons). My attitude toward it, because it's sparse in my area, is why should I cut my best pine and leave junk. If they don't want the junk (inferior trees) or can't use it, I'm sure I don't want to be left with just junk. The system has to work on sound management and not greed. In fact they could use alot of less than perfect pine because they do alot of finger jointing in this day in age. I see it in doors and mouldings they sell at the hardware store all the time. I'm speeking of one dominant forestry company that utilizes alot of white pine, has the distribution network to get it (logs) and to send and sell it (lumber, finished products) anywhere they wish.

[jackpine]

Stumpage on my neighbors white pine was $150/mbf. All of the 16ft. went for cabin logs, but had to be trimmed of any sign of butt rot.

[slowzuki]

All the pine down here near fredericton is the knarly old stuff that has had its leaders insect damaged or been hit by lightning.  Of the ones I've cut, about half have butt rot.  The ones that don't have been in mixed species dry sites.  The ones that do were in wetter areas.

I read somewhere that rocky sites and sites that have grown from field or clearcut or where conditions make the roots lay out on the ground surface are much more prone to butt rot.  The hypothesis was that the roots are more prone to small cuts and abrasions where the fungi can get in.

Dunno if it is true.

[SwampDonkey]

Makes sence to me Ken. I've laid out thinning on those sites that are wetter and the roots are near the surface. Some hard on the feet after treading through that and being wet footed as well. On private ground I avoid that wet stuff unless it's cedar mixed with spruce and tamarack. I think the government is going to clamp down on the marketing boards that thin alot of poplar. Our board is dead set against thinning poplar and I stand behind them on that. Thinning poplar is a waste of my tax dollars, it's self thinning and gets alot of canker unless you have a stand of large-toothed. Why I mention poplar is it's usually on wetter sites, not always but when I travel around the province and see what some people have been alowd to thin, I shake my head.  :

[slowzuki]

Re the thinning of poplar, there is a lot of that around Nackawic and by my area.  I have also read that allowing pioneer hardwoods to naturally dominate the stand before fir progression can help kill the fungi that cause butt-rot in fir.  No clue if it helps pine ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Fir suppression (long term) by poplar and birch overstory will usually result is but rotted fir. Frasers have wasted alot of money on thinning that suppressed fir after they use bunchers to remove the overstory. Any that I've seen is rotten or almost there, and the bark is all dried up (no pitch bubbles).

[jrdwyer]

Seasonal flooding combined with poorly drained or somewhat poorly drained soils equals butt rott on trees that have minimal natural decay resistance in their heartwood.

I encounter this all the time with soft maple (red and silver) in the Ohio River bottoms. I also see it with river birch, willow, cottonwood and to a lesser extent on elm and sweetgum. The hard hardwood like cherrybark red oak, pin oak, swamp white or swamp chestnut oak, pecan, shellbark hickory, and green ash have a much lower occurrance of butt rott in anaerobic soil conditions (unless the trees are near biological maturity which is quite rare).

[Ironman]

Just one observation from down south.  I am in the midlands of South Carolina outside of Columbia.  EWP is native just north of here but planted heavily in my area as wind breaks and because people love the species for its appearance.  It is definitely a prettier tree than loblolly or Slash Pine (Dominant Commercial Species in the South). Unfortunately the trees don't fair well here long term.  They usually die after impressive, vigorous growth.  Usually around the 16 to 20 inch BHD they develop root rott, brown and die.  I was told by the local extension that the root fungus they contract is particularly devestating in sandy soils.  In the midlands we have sand as we are in an area that millions of years ago was under seawater.  Just north of here the soil composition is largely clay.  Low and behold EWP fairs very well just north of here with large, very healthy and vigorous growth specimens.  Unfortunately the species was logged to near extinction here along with Longleaf Pine.  It remains growing wild in only a few areas in South Carolina, mostly around Walhalla and the northern border with Georgia and NC.