Cable Length for Logging Winch

[Jim]

I own 112 acres of good hardwood bush. There is a large patch of medium size white Ontario cedar (12-15 inch at butt) in a very swampy area which I would like to harvest for my band saw mill and turn into decking. I have a 40hp, 4wd Kubota tractor that I would like to put a winch on. I have done some web searches and see that there is a drum capacity ranging from 300 - 450ft depending on the thickness of cable used but they are only shipped with 150ft of cable. Also most of the posts I read on this Forum suggest that most winchs use 150 ft. I probably can't reach much of the cedar at that distance.

Keeping in mind that I will be pulling a very light weight wood, and I am prepared to retrieve at 1 or 2 logs per pull, would it be feasible (and safe) to have say 300 ft of cable on the drum? If a log gets stuck on a stump, I could lift the log end over the stump. This is not a commercial venture and I have all kinds of time to devote to a good harvest.


  

[Jeff]

Welcome Jim. I'll give corley5 a holler. Seems he did some cedar swamp harvesting last winter.

[Tom]

Welcome to the Forum, Jim.

Around here the fellows would tell you that you need at least enough cable to reach the log. :D  They aren't all interested or think about the safety aspect of it. :D

Better wait for Corley5's suggestions.

[Ed_K]

 Welcome Jim, I would worry that adding extra line to the drum, would speed up the line pull. I use 120' on my fransguard winch, and another cable to reach, tho it means rehooking half way, and pulling out the cable again.

[ADfields]

How much line you have out is less important then how much you have in!   :P   You must keep 5 wraps of line on the winch at all times so it wont pull off the drum on you.   Now the more line you have out the more recoil effect you will have if something gives way on you, the line stores energy like a rubber band so the bigger the band the more potential energy it will have.   But I think 500 foot is not that much line to have out and feel it's a safe working distance.   Now to winch in a log from 500 foot will take a very very long time and be a lot of heat buildup for your winch.   I would think about pulling the line threw a block on a tree with your tractor driving forward for the sake of time.

Sounds like fun and welcome! 8)
Andy

[Corley5]

We use our Fransgard 4000 mounted on a Kubota of about 40hp to skid cedar.  The key is the colder the weather the better.  With a tractor of this size you can freeze trails of snow and ice just about anywhere in a cedar swamp you want to.  We cut a patch and skid over it then let the disturbed snow sit over night and by the next day its hard enough to drive the tractor over.  Tire chains help too.  We've got 150' of cable but seldom use more than half of it.  This is low impact logging too.  When the snow melts in the spring the tops are the only clue that a timber harvest took place.  Another trick is not to clear the slash out of the trail.  Run over it but don't leave any tire poppers ;)  The brush helps distribute weight and hold things together after it freezes.  The more you drive over a snow and ice road the better it is.  Traffic drives the frost in good and deep 8).  If things go as planned I'm hoping to get to the swamp this coming week.  We'll see how the 372 Husky likes cedar 8)  

[rebocardo]

>  I would think about pulling the line threw a block on a tree
>  with your tractor driving forward for the sake of time.

I agree. I would get a winch for your extraction and use the tractor for skidding. If you do get the winch, my views follow, though it applies to pulling it out to.

To pull in 300+ feet of cable onto a winch is not what you want to do because wrapping it will be a nightmare along with all the stuff it picks up. If you do not wrap it perfect, then it will just hunker over the coiled part down wrong and you will have a tough time pulling it off the drum to unwind it.

Most powerful winches operate at the most 10 feet a minute on their top coils. For 300 feet, this is a long wait.

Get the most powerful winch with the thickest cable. I would go with at least 3/8. Then use shorter cables, they can even be 5/16, with shackles to connect every thing. The reason I would go with at least 3/8 is even taking precautions, it stinks and is dangerous when a cable breaks, and they all break sometime.

If you have a long cable 300 feet long, it will weigh 150+ pounds and you have to drag it through a swamp, sounds like a lot of work to me.

I rather walk out with a 100 foot 25 pound coil, lay it out, walk back and get another one, walk only 200 feet back out this time, and hook it up, and repeat, instead of trying to drag a 300 foot piece of cable through a swamp.

The lengths of cable should be shorter than the amount of cable you are going to pull back in on the drum. As the cable finishes winding in, detach a length of the cable, pull out the winch line again. Leave the line that is now unlinked and unused where it is for the next log to be dragged in. I would hook it to a high tree branch so it is easy to find later.

[ADfields]

rebocardo, sounds like I'm not the only one that has played this game a time or two. :D   Cant tell ya how many times I wanted a winch to pull the line back out of the DanG winch and out the the thing I'm gonna be winching back in. : :
Andy

[Corley5]

Here's the link to the pics of last year's cedar cut
https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=Business;action=display;num=1047793034;start=0
Lots of cable isn't necessary if you've got cold weather and snow on the ground.  When we first start we have longer drags with the cable to get us into the swamp on a frozen trail.  We start by winching skids in from firmer ground at the swamp's edge.  Once the trail is established, usually overnight if it's cold enough, we don't use any more than 50' at the most.  The only spots you have to watch out for are live streams and springs.  These will never freeze solid and cause soft spots in your trail.  If we need to cross a small stream we'll lay a short culvert in and cover it with snow and slash.  In the spring it's easy to pull out by hand by moving a little brush.  Deer are also your friend.  They are drawn to fresh cedar tops and will tramp and freeze snow as good as dragging logs out.

[Jim]

Thanks guys. That is a wealth of information you have provided and all of it makes very good sense. I can now see why it would not be a good idea to try and reel 350ft of cable onto a winch. I can also see why it would be a good idea to log it in the winter. I hadn't thought of using chains on a Kubtoa but that sure would improve the traction. What you have convinced me about is the necessity of getting a winch. It will also help with the removal of dead or deceased trees in the hardwood part of the bush. I have great access trails put in by loggers 14 years ago, so I would have to go far into the bush to get most of the bad stuff out. I like the idea of using 3/8 cable on the winch then hand carrying 100ft lengths of 5/16 out to the logs

I have a Case 590 backhoe plus good acess to large gravel deposits and could spend some time in the driest part of next summer, prepping the area where I would like to start logging the cedar, next winter. I might also be able to build a coduroy road right into the cedar.  I am currently recovering from hand surgery and won't be able to get a start on anything until Spring. That will give me lots of time to shop around for a suitable winch.

And thanks for such a warm welcome to the Forum. I can see that I am going to spend a lot of time hanging around here.

[Corley5]

There are still remains of old corduroy ice roads that were built in the cedar swamps around here at the turn of the century.  That's how they fed the shingle mills.  

[Ed_K]

 I have the Fransguard 2800, but the tajfun with remote control was looking pretty good yesterday.I also got the 2870 massy 4wheel drive too. Tho its 1/16 scale  :D won the door prise  8).

[Jim]

That will the next thing for me to do Ed. And that's to figure out which winches would meet my needs with a Kubota 3710. They all look good, but I'm sure some are better than others. I also like the idea of using a remote as I will be working by myself a fair bit and it would be handy to stay near and behind the log. I suspect if the cable snaps, it will go in the direction of the pull. I have had a couple of chains go when I have been pulling with the hoe and it ain't pretty.

[Madman_Mark]

Hey Jim, I use a Farmi 351 winch on a 55 HP Fiat 4WD with loader.
It comes with 165 feet of 3/8 cable and 3 sliders which enables you to hook a choker to each one (haul 3 trees at once).
It's the perfect size for your tractor and I highly recommend it.
I used to use a Norse/Igland but the Farmi takes the cake.
The clutch will automaticlly slip when it reaches it's max pull (8000 lbs) so it has less chance of breaking the cable or choker.
I rarely use more then half of the 165 feet, the longer the winching distance the more chance you have of it fetching up and dragging brush.
It also a pain in the @$$ to walk all the way back to re-hitch or move the choker.

[ADfields]

There is no way AT ALL to tell witch way a cable will fly, EVER!   Best thing to do is be behind something solid at all times when winching something.   A couple of other tips are point all hook tips to the sky so if they open up the line and hook hit the ground first dumping most of the force.  Use only grade 80 riggings and nothing that you don't know what grad it is, be sure.   Use only swedged eyes on your the cable if you can and if you cant then remember the clamps never saddle a dead horse so the nuts ALWAYS go to the live line side of the loop not the dead end!!   Using the clamps drops the WLL (working load limit) of the cable by 20% when used the right way, much more if you saddle a dead horse.

On the winch a worm drive is slower and cheaper than a planetary but the planetary is faster and will last much longer.
Andy

[slowzuki]

A q to do with winching, anybody here use skiding cones to reduce fetching up when skiding alone?  I did some cable twitching a few weeks back and I was always off with the peavy rolling butts off stumps.  Really time consuming!


Ken

[Jim]

I must admit I have had a lot of fun these past few days; finding out about all the different brands of logging winches that are available. Unfortunately, there are not many units that I can look at in this area so it is very hard to compare features. The local dealers can order in almost any unit but don't have any in stock and they are totally clueless about what each winch does.

The dealer where I got my Kubota, can get me a Norse 390 for Canadian $2,877 but he's not sure what that includes. Madman_Max. I was interested in your comment that you had a Norse but much preferred the Farmi 351. I would be interested in hearing why you like the Farmi better. Is it the clutch slipping feature or are there other substantial differences? The promotional stuff on the Norse says it is ideal for beginners! Not sure that's what I am looking for. Sounds kind of dinky. The Farmi 351 retails for $3,095.

I can also get a re-possessed Fransguard 4000 for $2,500. The dealer took it back after 4 months use, so it should be in good shape. Unfortunately, it is buried under the snow in his yard and he has to dig it out before I can look at it.

I have been in touch with a Tajfun dealer in Alberta but their units seem very expensive. Are they very good units? Are they worth the extra money?

I thought a radio controlled remote would be a good idea but the radio costs almost as much as a winch. I think I'll pass on that option.

If anyone would care to comment further, I would appreciate it. I am in no rush to buy and have lots of time to travel further afield to look at actual units, once I understand a little more.

Many thanks for your help on this.

[Corley5]

We've been more than happy with our Fransgard 4000.  We've skidded hardwood and pine sawlogs with it on our MF 180 and used it extensively in the swamp on my friends Kubota.  It has ropes on it to control the winch so you can stand a good distance off when winching.  Check out E-bay for them too.  Here's a listing for a Farmi 351  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2589216876&category=26188
A search of E-bay for skidder should yield more results.

[Keltic]

I miised out on a really nice farni 351 at a farm auction last summer. I went to 1800 and quit. I wasn't sure about the retail. As it was if I got it for 2K I still would of saved a thousand. Shucks!

[Jim]

Just on my way to see that Fransgard 4000 for $2,500. It was only 4 months old and was re-possessed. I checked the price on a new one yesterday and they wante $3,700 so $2,500 sounds like a good price.

When I talked to a dealer yestrday, he said the Farmi 351 had a heavier drive chain than the Fransgard 4000 but they were otherwise similar in quality and performance.

[Jim]

I am now the proud owner of a Fransgard 4000! 8)

It was in brand new condition with not even a paint scratch on it. The Kubota dealer where I bought it will cut the PTO shaft down to the size that will fit my tractor and deliver it. It didn't have any chokers so I have ordered 3 plus an extra 100ft length of 5/16 cable. It had the 3/8 cable on the winch. I don't think the dealer was aware that Fransgard just had a general increase in price of over $300 in December.

I would like to express my sincere thanks for the help provided since I first started this thread about a week ago. I knew absolutely nothing about logging winches then and had no idea what to buy or look for in a winch. I am still no expert but at least, I have the benefit of the knowledge and experience from those of you who have contributed. I said I was in no rush but when you see something that suits in the right price range, it's hard to hold back. I hope that others who have seen, or will see this thread, have taken away something of interest.

Thanks again

[Corley5]

 8) 8) 8)  Welcome to the club ;D  You did get a good deal on that.  We paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $3,500.00 for ours with 4 chain chokers and slides.  You won't be sorry.  We broke the chain on ours once but it was our fault.  We were winching in some heavy brush and something got between the chain and sprocket and popped the chain.  No big deal just added repair link and we back in business.

[Ed_K]

 I have the 2800 series. does the 4000 have a hand release flip lever to release the winch line from a locked position?
 I drilled a hole in mine and added a rope so I can release from the seat, if I have to drop a hitch to cross a bad spot.

[Corley5]

Our 4000 has the hand release lever but came with a rope attached from the factory.  As I remember the green rope runs controls the winch and the red one controls the lock or maybe it's the other way around ;D

[Jim]

A couple of more quick questions. Do I really need a snatch block and what is a slider?