Contrasting 1.5" vs 2": chiesels and drill bits

Rougespear · May 30, 2016, 10:34:49 AM

Hi all, I am planning to use 2" thick tenons in my TF. While I have read 1.5" framing chisels are "the most versatile", are they recommended/appropriate for cleaning a 2" wide mortise, or should I move up to using a 2" chisel? For the record, I also have a 1" corner chisel, so I am wondering if the 1.5" framing chisel is the way to go.

Further to mortising tools, when making 2" mortises, should the drilling bit be exactly the width of the mortise or slightly undersized (1/8") to leave the line to clean up with a chisel? In my previous experience, auger bits can "wander" somewhat... alternatively, forstner bits remain more true (but there are limitations associated with ejecting the chips). Thoughts of suggestions on sizing tools?

Ljohnsaw · May 30, 2016, 11:21:06 AM

:P Great questions! Awaiting responses...

Jim_Rogers · May 30, 2016, 11:31:10 AM

We use a two inch chisel to do a 2" mortise.

We use a two inch bit to bore a 2" mortise hole.

Others use a 1 7/8" bit for a 2" mortise. It could be said that it is personal preference.

We use a corner chisel for corners. Any size works great.

You can do it all with an 1 1/2" chisel but chopping end grain in a two inch mortise with a 1 1/2" chisel is a challenge to get it flat/flush. 2" does it automatic.

Jim Rogers

Dave Shepard · May 30, 2016, 11:52:07 AM

For best results, use exact size bits and chisels for your mortise width.

Ljohnsaw · May 30, 2016, 12:33:11 PM

And then I suppose you should cut the mortise first. If it ends up slightly oversize, then the tenon can be made to match...

I've seen where framers would use a test tenon/mortise to assure consistency. If you were doing a bunch of braces I could see where that would come in handy. Do you do that Jim?

Jim_Rogers · May 30, 2016, 12:48:39 PM

We test the mortise with a framing square. Either the body or the tongue depending on the width of the mortise.

Now we use the new tenon/mortise checker for the tenon:

Saturday we figured out how to use it to check 4" offset mortises:

On the 19th, my timber frame teacher figured out how to use it to check a 1 1/2" mortise laid out 1 1/2" off the shoulder.

So now it is not only a tenon checker but also a mortise checker as well.

Jim Rogers

Ljohnsaw · May 30, 2016, 02:01:07 PM

WOW

Now that looks handy! Where did you find that?

Jim_Rogers · May 30, 2016, 03:45:39 PM

Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 30, 2016, 02:01:07 PM
WOW

Now that looks handy! Where did you find that?

My friend Bob from NH invented it. I'm making them. See listing in for sale section.

Jim Rogers

Ljohnsaw · May 30, 2016, 05:10:10 PM

Quote from: Jim_Rogers on May 30, 2016, 03:45:39 PM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 30, 2016, 02:01:07 PM
WOW

Now that looks handy! Where did you find that?

My friend Bob from NH invented it. I'm making them. See listing in for sale section.

Jim Rogers

Cool. You have a milling machine? I do so I'll be making my own with a few spare framing squares I have laying around.

Rougespear · May 31, 2016, 10:14:14 AM

Thanks for the clear-cut opinions... much appreciate the instructions!

peterpaul · May 31, 2016, 08:46:04 PM

Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 30, 2016, 05:10:10 PM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on May 30, 2016, 03:45:39 PM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 30, 2016, 02:01:07 PM
WOW

Now that looks handy! Where did you find that?

My friend Bob from NH invented it. I'm making them. See listing in for sale section.

Jim Rogers

Cool. You have a milling machine? I do so I'll be making my own with a few spare framing squares I have laying around.

Please take my comment for what it is worth, which isn't much, but copying/benifiting from someones elses "invention" (without their permission), is well like pirating software or music.
I have learned a great deal on this website due to the free exchange of technical details and the vast knowledge and experience of others. I could imagine that someone else with an "invention" may be reluctant to share it openly or share their knowledge for fear of coping. Perhaps a donation to FF in Bob"s (and Jim's) name would be in order. Like I said, this is just my opinion.

Brad_bb · May 31, 2016, 09:51:34 PM

I prefer to bore with a bit the same diameter as the width of the mortise. Going smaller will create more work for yourself in cleaning up the mortise. You need a good boring bit with a good lead screw. Mark the centerline of your mortise in addition to the actual mortise. Knife your mortise perimeter so you don't get tear out. Mark the starting points on your centerline for the boring bit using an awl to dimple the surface. That will help them start where you want them. Heck I've never done it, but I suppose you could even predrill small holes like 1/8" or smaller to guide the start of your lead screw tip. Occasionally you may have a boring bit go 1/32nd off center. It will show a little partial moon on the outside of your mortise. Most of the time it won't make a hill of beans worth of difference as most times it is hidden by the mating timber. One bore a little off will not affect your mortise position either because it's really just a small area that is off. the rest of the mortise face will make sure your tenon locates where you want it too.

As far as chisels - have both 2" and 1.5", no question. Both have their different uses. If you're looking at the high cost of new chisels like barr or Autine, don't discount antique chisels. All of mine are antique framing chisels (know the difference between framing and parring chisels).

peterpaul, I think you're making a number of assumptions. I don't think it wise to impugn someone's ethics without knowing all the information. I'm sure you're not really trying to do that, but it could be taken that way. Jim may have asked permission, or it may be something that is not patentable or too much of a niche invention to be worth patenting. Got knows I've had a number of those. If you want to get technical, if someone has shown their invention publicly, they have one year from that time to apply for patent. If not, it's fair game to anyone. Another thing many people don't realize, and it's unfortunate, but if you don't have the money to defend a patent, it's not worth much. So if you have a patent and someone had privately seen it, or you started selling it with a patent, and someone copied your product and started selling it, you have to pay for an attorney to start legal action. And it can get very expensive to defend a patent.

Jim_Rogers · May 31, 2016, 10:17:05 PM

Bob and I have an agreement.

ljohnsaw and I have an agreement.

We are all working to help everyone to have a new tool to use.

Jim Rogers

Ljohnsaw · May 31, 2016, 10:36:14 PM

Brad and Jim - thanks for your posts and permission.

Peterpaul - I respectfully disagree. Using someones idea and improving on it is what free enterprise is all about (IMHO) and is what creates even better products. It is NOT like pirating software or music. Those are artistic creations and using technology to make an exact copy (they are copyrighted automatically). What I plan to do is to make one for my use. I will NOT go into business and compete with Brad and Jim. I have not held or used their product but I do have an idea for a improvement. If I can make it work like I envision, I'll send the idea back to the inventor for him to use as he sees fit.

If we were to take your point of view, we wouldn't be allowed to make our own home-built sawmills! I think most everyone here who has built their own mills "borrowed" quite a few ideas from production mills and other home-built mills. The free sharing of ideas in the sawmills mods thread goes a long way into making better products - I'd hope the mill manufactures are watching that thread to improve upon their mills!

Rougespear · May 31, 2016, 11:47:45 PM

Well put... I frequently borrow ideas: imitation is a complement, and there's no point in re-inventing the wheel.

Brad: re antique chisels... where would a fellow begin looking for those in Canada? I ask because yes, you are right, I am having sticker shock at some of the tools I need to acquire in the next couple weeks.

peterpaul · June 01, 2016, 06:48:10 AM

My apologies to all involved, I responded to what I read, I am aware and familiar public domain, patents, etc.

Ljohnsaw · June 01, 2016, 10:50:03 AM

Quote from: peterpaul on June 01, 2016, 06:48:10 AM
My apologies to all involved, I responded to what I read, I am aware and familiar public domain, patents, etc.

When I first read what your wrote, I was a bit miffed. But then I remembered two things - stuff in print does not always come across with the right meaning and everyone here is really decent, well meaning folks. My post, upon reflection, looks a little "greedy" in that I'm "taking" and idea. My intention is only to improve on ideas.

A lifetime ago (late 90's), I thought I had the big ticket idea to set me up for unlimited income (fishing related) :D Surprisingly, it is still out there if you google "John's Big Plans Tripod". The site is in disrepair (bad ad links) but you can see I wanted to share lots of money saving ideas. I have no way to get into it to modify or take it down. I guess the internet is forever! I think I made about $100 total from that "Big Plan" :D The only thing I didn't make was the trolling side planner.

Haggis · June 01, 2016, 10:51:26 AM

Quote from: Rougespear on May 31, 2016, 11:47:45 PM
Well put... I frequently borrow ideas: imitation is a complement, and there's no point in re-inventing the wheel.

Brad: re antique chisels... where would a fellow begin looking for those in Canada? I ask because yes, you are right, I am having sticker shock at some of the tools I need to acquire in the next couple weeks.

I hear ya! I recently was looking at getting some timber frame chisels and my god they want allot for the Robert Sorbey's! I live in Ontario CA.

Brad_bb · June 01, 2016, 10:27:59 PM

Rougespear, Believe it or not, I bought all of mine via ebay. I'm jealous of the east coast guys who have chisels and axes at every flea market and garage sale...nothing like that here in the rustbelt. The first Chisel I bought was a T.H. Witherby. I liked it. I decided I was going to have a set that was all the same brand (must be an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder thing). I found them on ebay over time. Some I paid more for, some much less. I have two 2", two 1.5", and one corner chisel, all TH Witherby. Only one had a decent handle so I had my uncle make new Ash handles. He found brass rings for them, but I've never been able to find any more of the nice ones he had found. All of them needed a decent amount of tuning up before they were ready for use. One had an arc to it, and all needed the flat side flattened.

Anyway, Jim Rogers sells antique framing chisels. I understand that they are all ready to work from him, so you won't have to tune them up like I did. His current inventory list is in the for sale section. I have liked the antique laminated chisels(A very stiff hard steel laminated to a softer cast steel). Laminated ones give you stiffness and sharpness from the hard side and some flex and shock absorbtion from the softer side. I understand the Barrs are good too, I tried someone's briefly.

Make sure you get framing chisels with flat sides and not beveled sides. Framing chisels are thicker than parring chisels.

jimdad07 · June 07, 2016, 11:04:00 PM

Quote from: Brad_bb on June 01, 2016, 10:27:59 PM
Rougespear, Believe it or not, I bought all of mine via ebay. I'm jealous of the east coast guys who have chisels and axes at every flea market and garage sale...nothing like that here in the rustbelt. The first Chisel I bought was a T.H. Witherby. I liked it. I decided I was going to have a set that was all the same brand (must be an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder thing). I found them on ebay over time. Some I paid more for, some much less. I have two 2", two 1.5", and one corner chisel, all TH Witherby. Only one had a decent handle so I had my uncle make new Ash handles. He found brass rings for them, but I've never been able to find any more of the nice ones he had found. All of them needed a decent amount of tuning up before they were ready for use. One had an arc to it, and all needed the flat side flattened.

Anyway, Jim Rogers sells antique framing chisels. I understand that they are all ready to work from him, so you won't have to tune them up like I did. His current inventory list is in the for sale section. I have liked the antique laminated chisels(A very stiff hard steel laminated to a softer cast steel). Laminated ones give you stiffness and sharpness from the hard side and some flex and shock absorbtion from the softer side. I understand the Barrs are good too, I tried someone's briefly.

Make sure you get framing chisels with flat sides and not beveled sides. Framing chisels are thicker than parring chisels.

As for the brass rings you can make your own out of brass pipe nipples and polish them. I would look for yellow brass though, I think it's harder than red brass.
As for the discussion on chisels and sizing, I use my 2" for most of my framing up to this point. It also doubles as a slick for me until I can buy a good slick. Thank God I bought a chain morticer!!!