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Cable skidder versus cable dozer

Started by killamplanes, November 07, 2016, 08:43:33 PM

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killamplanes

I currently run a jd 440 cable skider. I find myself needing something bigger a fair amount of the time. I see alot of grapple skidders but a good one under 50k would be pretty tuff here. There are alot of midsized dozer here with winches that for same money would be in great shape. The dozer would be 6-way blade ps with limb risers. I now the dozer wouldn't work for long skids but I got a knuckle boom so I tend to not make landing very far. Thoughts on comparables. Another negative is im sure landowner would ask for a little dozin while im there and i have no interest in it. Ive had highlift for 10yrs. And cost of operation. What's ur thoughts.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

starmac

One logger I hauled for (he retired this year) mostly shovel logged, but used a 650 JD with a logger package for any skidding he had to do. He just did not like skidders.
He does use it for dirtwork some in the off season too though.
Another logger I still haul for has a D4 with a swinging grapple, neat machine, but does probably 90% or better of his skidding with a timberjack 380 grapple skidder.

Pretty much all loggers here large or small has at least one dozer, it is pretty much mandatory to build roads and landings with, but most have skidders too.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Spartan

dozer will pull more (Depends on size), skidder is faster by far, will wear you out less, usually have a winch with faster recovery. 
Why would you not want to get paid to do a little dirt work?
dozers have their advantages.
If you ever get into skidding on rock, you'll wish you never had one.
We use our D6 with a grapple to build road, plow road, make a skid trail here and there, make landings and truck turn arounds.  And we skid with it (only when our skidders are broke down)

killamplanes

I wouldn't want to do dirt  work because I will never get done logging. That was my point. There are alot of operators and larger dozer that would love the work around here and I get alot of timber from them is another reason I stay out of excavating. I have always had highlift for my own ground, to clear etc.  I'm not convinced either way yet. Would be easier decision if a grapple skidder showed up here and it didn't come with a tool box :D
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

coxy

so get one that comes with a payment book instead of a tool box  :) :)

jdeere540a

I think a skidder would be the better way. I can't think of any one here that logs for a living and skids with a dozer. Undercarriage is very expensive. My uncle use to log with a international td9b it would pull a lot but was not as efficient as my John Deere 540. I wish we still had the 9 for dirt work but would never give my skidder up to skid with one

Riwaka

It depends on the dozer and the terrain, some modern dozers are quite quick.
Winch speed is about hydraulics vs pto drive, hydraulics etc.
If the used grapple skidders are over priced in your area, you have to look further away and factor in the extra transport relocation cost.
Grapple skidders also often have winches to pull logs out of ravines with.
Rather than putting a grapple on the rear of a dozer, it possible to have tow behind grapples like a logging arch and keep a winch on the dozer.
A large agricultural/ Forestry converted tractor with a logging winch could pull similarly to the 440.
A clambunk with crane if you have a lot of work.
Cost a fair bit but this looks like a versatile machine.
https://youtu.be/sn9ggKaQZvU

OH logger

that guy in the video talks funny :D.  im on flat ground here and ive had a cable skidder and im on my 2nd grapple skidder. if i had to go back to a cable skidder or a dozer i would be not happy. they all have their place and i do too...in the grapple machine. i dont think im lazy but i like production and grapple machines move the wood. even with short skids dozers are expensive to operate. i didnt go the beat up used route. i bought new but maybe im wrong too but here are NO used skidders around here. when i was looking for my first grapple i WASTED a lot of time, money and gas touring the country lookin for GOOD used machines and went on wild goose chases. i am fussy but  they are most all beat to heck and back so i bit the bullet and bought new and have not regretted it YET on either of the grapples i bought. if the economy would tank i might be singing a different tune but ill cross that bridge if it comes. everyones different but i would rather make payments than fix. i would rather be in the machine than under it but thats just me
john

xalexjx

id stay away from a track machine, undercarrige cost is high and they arnt as fast in the woods. I would recommend a grapple skidder, I had both a grapple and cable machine for a while and the cable machine sat too much and ended up selling it. Not sure I could go back to running just a cable machine after going on 3 years on a grapple.
Logging and Processed Firewood

BurkettvilleBob

I've got a small jd dozer with an arch on it, granted I haven't put too many hours on it in the woods, but let's just say I'm hoping to find a skidder. Each machine has its place and I'm sure there are times when a dozer is great, short skids on ground that isn't too rocky, but every revolution of the tracks sounds like money. I wanted to cut a little wood and reclaim some fields, so a dozer sounded good, but I would hate to pound it back and forth all day on a long skid. I guess if your business is logging, you just factor undercarriage wear into your overhead, tires are pretty expensive too.

BurkettvilleBob

I had a question too, but started thinking about my dozer and forgot it. How do you use a grapple skidder efficiently in a selective cut? How can driving to each tree be more efficient than pulling cable from one place to multiple trees?

xalexjx

Quote from: BurkettvilleBob on November 10, 2016, 12:59:20 PM
I had a question too, but started thinking about my dozer and forgot it. How do you use a grapple skidder efficiently in a selective cut? How can driving to each tree be more efficient than pulling cable from one place to multiple trees?

I can back my grapple to a tree and grab it faster then I can pull a cable and carry chokers + the getting on and off gets tiring pretty quick, most of the marked cuts I'v cut have been marked on the heavy side removing the lower grade wood. The time savings at the landing also adds up. Only thing that takes a tad longer is when I'm skidding near or over 1/2 mile I spend extra time bunching to get larger hitches if its good ground, . Most the time if theyre 12-18" trees i grab 5-7 and go if im not skidding far. Iv had some hitches when skidding a long ways i fill the grapple right up 10-15 trees. The most efficient way to hand cut for a grapple skidder is laying your trees out right, someone who can plan out cutting saves a lot of time for the skidder operator.
Logging and Processed Firewood

longtime lurker

I'll go places with a dozer that no skidder could ever hope to get near, and when I get there I'll pull out logs that no skidder of the same tonnage can look at: even a little dozer can put power on the ground, and that means big hitches.
But a skidder is quick, no doubt about it, and over a day unless it's  marginal terrain the right sized skidder will put more logs on the landing.

Why is your 440 too small? There's a difference between too small to pull single logs ( the problem I have with the 666 Clark's quite often) and too small to pull a hitch of them, and too small to push its way into where we got to get to (another problem I encounter a lot with the skidders). There are a whole lot of pluses and minuses either way, and log size, skid length, and terrain dictate what's the best mix of toys to have.



The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

BurkettvilleBob

LongtimeLurker,  when you say you go places with a dozer that a skidder could not, do you mean mostly steep terrain? What fo you run for a machine?

killamplanes

Don't get me wrong I've never found a tree with my 440 I couldn't get out of the timber. But I may have to take it out in pieces or logs. Very time consuming and 40in stuff which is not uncommon here hurts the little skidder. tuff on winch, clutch and me trying to keep it on the ground. But maybe need to steer away from dozer they can pull a good hitch but I select cut a lot and don't know how many landowners will like to see a dozer unloaded to drag trees out. grapple skidder would me more practical. Love the 440 but the trees aren't getting any smaller.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Riwaka

Probably ask yourself what business direction you would most like to take.
Would it be better to concentrate on trucking and pick up more wood for more people? i.e Have a 2nd truck (log loader, low boy machine hauler) or a better truck rather than invest in (in the woods) logging machinery.
You could put a bin on your truck and pick up scrap metal or other recycling.
http://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/11973735/deere-548e (Is this the type of machine in your area)

Kobelco ED160 with 6 way adjustable blade (if you pull wood quicker to the load out area with a grapple skidder you might be a sort machine)
https://youtu.be/0Mn9YU61MT8

Mike_M

 We live in the coast range of Oregon and my dads first machine was a Case 450 dozer with winch. He did a lot of road building and logging with that little machine. Now we have a JD 650 dozer and Timber Jack 360 grapple skidder, in addition to a couple other machines. With the steep terrain a dozer is a high priority in our area. We can pre-bunch with the dozer and then take them into the landing area with the skidder. Once the wet weather comes the skidder is very limited, even with chains. The skidder works well in select cuts as long as the skid roads are thought out and the logs are bunched so they will lead out correctly.

longtime lurker

Quote from: killamplanes on November 13, 2016, 08:24:35 PM
Don't get me wrong I've never found a tree with my 440 I couldn't get out of the timber. But I may have to take it out in pieces or logs. Very time consuming and 40in stuff which is not uncommon here hurts the little skidder. tuff on winch, clutch and me trying to keep it on the ground. But maybe need to steer away from dozer they can pull a good hitch but I select cut a lot and don't know how many landowners will like to see a dozer unloaded to drag trees out. grapple skidder would me more practical. Love the 440 but the trees aren't getting any smaller.

Yup, I'm hearing ya...

Heres the thing right... I've played with big woods machines, I've played with small woods machines. Lot of guys say "select cut"and think its got to be a small machine or it makes a mess. Personally I think thats not really the case. Heres why...

the difference in turning circle between a little JD 440, my midsized Clark 666's, and a big machine like a Cat 545 is about 3/5's of nothing once theres 40'of log on the back. Sure the little machine can fit through little gaps going into the bush... but to get the log back out it takes pretty much the same amount of room no matter what you're on. Now thats probably somewhat application specific: it probably dont apply to the guys doing thinnings type work where they bring out a hitch of logs to get their tonnage. But for operations like ours where its 1 log (or sometimes half one log) to the hitch its definately true.

Big machines - or big enough machines anyway - tend to do things easy. Machines that are working easy dont tear the ground up so much.

Either way its mostly about operator skill and attitude. Smart skid trails are more important then machine size in low impact logging.

And the lowest impact logging I ever did was with an arch mounted behind a D4 class dozer. Again it was single log skidding though, but she went in easy and came out with serious tonnage each time. Those old steel tyred dozer arches were a PITA but pretty much essential around here in the hill country, where D7's and an arch were barely enough machine.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

lynde37avery

I run both for my logging operation.  timberjack 208 skidder and john deere 450 dozer. I skid with both.  dozer is great for steep ground logging and road building.  bunching etc. cable skidder for long skid to the landing.  if you can have both ya can't go wrong.
Detroit WHAT?

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