South Central Missouri Timber-Selective Cut

[BlaBla]

I own 80 acres in south central Missouri(near Bro. Noble). I live in Kansas and the land needs to be selectively cut to maintain it.

Here is something Bro Noble PM'ed me awhile back:
   Timber piracy isn't much of a problem here.  Seems like a lot of loggers make a deal with you and then try and steal you blind

If your land was selective cut 30 years ago,  it probably needs cutting now.  It would be a good idea to make an appointment with the local farm forester and check it out.  He could probably reccomend loggers if it needs cutting.

The timber varies a great deal in this areal  On some of the gladier sites,  you will find a lot of cedar and low quality post oaks.  Better sites will have a mixture of red and white oaks with some hickory and walnut.  There are many other species found in smaller quantities.  Some places in the area have good stands of Southern Yellow Pine which is usually mixed with hardwoods----mainly red oaks.   Trees along the creeks and bottomland will be mostly sycamore,  hackberry,  elm,  walnut,  oak,  and some ash.

I'm planning on making a trip this fall to organize the cut. I don't have a clue what trees are on the land besides what Bro. Noble described as general to the area. I know that a creek big enough to be on a county map flows through the land and I do have a timber deed from December 1973 .

The deed says: Timber cut shall be 12'' in diameter & larger. No white oaks will be cut, unless marked. $35.00 per thousand board feet. ... that is the main part. Can you all determine anything about the current condition of this land from these few details ?

I'm preparing to travel down there for 2-3 days to organize a cut. I've never dealt with a timber sale of any sort.

My plan is to meet with a forester about planning the cut, but after that I'm clueless. Can you all tell me how to go about this without getting burned, and preserving the forest for another cut in 30 years?

I can do the work of marking trees that I want cut and things like this, but only in the winter when the growth has subsided and the snakes are gone!! When is the optimal time for a harvest? How long will tree paint last? Would I want to identify all sold trees by marking tree paint ~4 feet from the ground and then at the ground line (so that I can make sure that none were taken against the contract)?

Do timber sales now go with a prearranged price for the marked trees or do they sell by Mbf like the 1973 sale?

Thanks

[Bro. Noble]

Sounds like they may have selected for white oaks.  You may find a lot of good white oaks as they live a long time and are healthier in general than the red oaks.  If you do have good white oaks that need to be harvested,  you might find a veneer buyer.  The stave market is good in the area and is the best bet for white oak logs.

Mo.  has a good farm forestry program through the conservation dept.  There is a regional office in West plaines Mo.  The very best thing you can do is make an appointment with them and walk over the property.  The 2nd best thing is to make an appointment with me and spend a day cutting logs.  You will learn the species and why specific trees need to be harvested.  You can see indications of decline in the standing tree and then see the defects that correlate to those signs in the cut logs (and lumber if you want to spend the next day).  You can tell more (especially when you are new at it) when the leaves are out.  I'll give you a pair of 'snake leggins'  if you come by.  We don't cut in the bottoms except in the winter because of stinging nettles.  I'm more scared of them than snakes :D

The number for the forester is 1-417-256-7161

In the meanwhile,  you can get literature from the conservation depts and extension service in about any state on timber stand improvement.  Doing your homework here will allow you to learn more when you do meet with someone in person.

[BlaBla]

I was looking at this site: http://www.mdc.state.mo.us/documents/forest/products/prices/20040101.pdf

Are those prices for every Mbf?

Do most veneer buyers just want veneer trees or will they buy the sawlogs too? And what makes a stave log different from a sawlog?

Will the forestry people from West Plaines walk over the property and make recommendations for free?

And Bro. Noble-When is the best time to see the trees when their leaves are out, and preferably fewer snakes are out;)? I might have to come see your operation when I finally get down there. I'll let you know when I come down.

And what sorts of things can I do to avoid being burned by loggers?

Thanks

[Tom]

Your best all-around option, not being resident, is to let the forester do the work, sale and all.  You can spend your time educating him as to what you want to accomplish and let him come up with the plan.  He can cruise the property, marking trees and you can go along if you like. He can supervise the cutting when that happens too.  

If I were a non-resident land-owner, I would be shopping for an experienced Forester with good credentials and reputation rather than trying to learn so much in so little a space of time.  It takes an education and years of experience for these guys to do a good job. Not only do they have to learn the trees and the business but they have to learn who the loggers are and which mills to deal with.

One trick around here is for an unscrupulous logger to sell your logs to a saw mill and give you money for pulp.  A good forester will make sure that doesn't happen.  As a matter of fact, he will probably know a logger that won't do it.

I appreciate that you want to learn and that is all important too.  You need to be able to work with the forester. You also need to feel comfortable with the decisions and you have to know something about what is going on to do that.  These guys make their living as consulting Foresters where your well being is their interest.  I think I'd let one do it.

[Buzz-sawyer]

In Missouri (my neighbor) It may be tough to find a consulting forester, I know that area and it is VERY rural ....if you cannot find one or do not care to get one involved, then, your best bet is to get in touch with Missouri DNR they are really pretty great to work with and will prpbably do it for free and give some good advice....they have a good web site as well and I believe it has been posted in this thread that is where I would start....If I lived closer I would help! ;)
Don

[Bro. Noble]

The farm foresters will walk over your land with you and whatever services they provide is paid for by taxes (I hesitate to say it's free ;)).  They used to mark trees for a sale,  let bids,  and supervise the whole process.  Seems like in recent years they have done less of this.  You need to talk to them to find out what they are willing to do.  They should be able to reccomend loggers.

There is a consulting forester in West Plaines (Willard Snarebush  Schnarebush?---something like that).  He was a farm forester many years ago and now does surveying and consulting for a fee.  I would personally see what the farm forester will provide for 'free'.

[BlaBla]

I will contact the regional farm forester and see what he can provide. I'll follow up later by finding a consulting forester.

This William Snarebush-have you had any experience dealing with him or know anyone who dealed with him? I'm just cautious about every detail of this because I'm so inexperienced. I want to find the perfect forester and the perfect logger. Is there a possibility that a consulting forester could be connected with a logger and cheat a naive seller out of money? How can I avoid stuff like this?

And the prices on the DNR site-are those for each thousand board feet?

Thnanks

[SwampDonkey]

Stumpage on hardwood in 2004 terms should be between 90 and 150 per thousand depending on grade. It may be less in your region because of over supply. In my region the covertype of the forest is around 60 % hardwoods and that includes intolerants like aspen and birch. And most loggers here give the owners half the mill delivered price for veneer, which is $800 to $1700 per thousand from the mill up here.


Prime Special Yellow birch veneer stamped and scaled by the buyer. 95 bf per log, 8'9" length, 14 " plus top. Current price $1761.25/thous USD. Each piece is worth $167.32 and the mills pays the trucking, so the  producer gets the $167.32. ;) Same logs for saw stock at $350.00/th USD yields $33.25 per piece. Pulp wood price 187/th , yields $17.78/piece. These are producer prices before trucking and cutting costs. Stumpage is typically 20-30 % of mill price, I always insist on 30% unless the stand is real poor.

The way your deed reads for cutting specs, suggests diameter limit cutting which leads to high grading. For selection harvesting you need to be able to work with all merchantable sizes. ;)

[Ron Scott]

Missouri is a little "light" with independent professional consulting foresters as previously stated, but do seek out the services of a professional forester. One of the following contacts should be able to help.

Contact the local Conservation District Forester; DNR Service Forester, a professional consulting forester, university extension service or Association of Consulting Foresters of America, Inc. at www.acf-foresters.com

[Bro. Noble]

I couldn't get the website with the prices to load,  but I think I know the report that it gives.  They get sample prices from a few buyers so they are in the ballpark although the sample is usually pretty small.

To lower the chance of getting 'skinned' learn the basics of selling logs.  Publications are available from extension and the conservation service.  As Tom said earlier,  you can't expect to learn enough to make all the management decisions right off,  but it will help you know if others are qualified.

Get reccomendations from foresters (government or private)  I don't think you have to worry about them being connected to crooked loggers.

Ask the logger where he has logged before-----get reccomendations.  See what kind of a job he did before.  A sorry logger can do you a lot more harm than cheating you out of a few dollars.  Chances are that if he takes pride in doing a good job and plans to be in business for the long haul,  he is also honest.

As for the method of pricing a cut,  some pay so much per thousand and have your check sent from the sawmill.  Of course they could sell some to another mill if they want to cheat you.

A likely method if a forester handles the sale would be to estimate the footage of the trees marked for sale,  get bids,  get paid before the trees are cut or part now part later as arranged.

As far as the best time to look at trees,  anytime is good.  Don't worry too much about snakes.  Walk where you can see.  Step on a downed log and then off rather than stepping over.  They aren't usually aggressive but don't like to be stepped on.



willard Snarebush did an inventory on some timberland we bought about 30 years ago.  He worked for the conservation commission at the time.  He surveyed some timberland for a neighbor a few years ago.  

[Bibbyman]

The link you provided to the "Missouri Timber Price Trends" also has a lot of valuable information on contacting a local Missouri Forestry Division office.  See page 6.

As for someone to manage your timber sale,  Shelby Jones,  who is editor of the Missouri Price Trends,  is a consultant forester.   He is retired from the Missouri Department of Conservation Forestry Division but still puts out this report for them.  He'd be a great place to start looking for a forester.

His e-mail address at the state is -  joness@mdc.state.mo.us  

I'll instant message you is home e-mail address.

[BlaBla]

I called the DNR Forester today. He's going to send me a form to fill out to prove I own the land and that I authorize them to evaluate the land.
 
He said that the DNR would help with "resource improvement". If resource improvement includes organizing a sale, they will do that too.

He said that they would evaluate the land and write up a management plan. If they write up a management plan, am I obligated to follow it? Does "resource improvement" go 100% together with "logging for profit and preserving the timberland for maximum profit in the future"? Will their management goals go with my objectives?

thanks

[SwampDonkey]

BlaBla:

Just some input from my perspective.

I've written several management plans myself and they are tailored to the owners goals and objectives, not a third party. Our woodlot owner association even pays the owner for fullfilling his plan recommendations. (to an annual maximum, so much per acre per year) All plans are reviewed by the association staff who report to a board of directors on a monthly basis. The staff are sent to the woodlot to pre-assess the qualifying work and to evaluate the work when complete. Our association takes in 0.5% from wood sales for forest management activities. Annual sales average $10 -12 million, 1.7% of sales pay salaries of the staff. Some woodlot owners hire the association to manage harvesting on their lot and the cost is $3.00/cord plus the 2.2 % of sales. Plus if the cutting crew were commercial thinning in hardwoods there was a $10/cord ($3.50/tonne) bonus provided the pulpwood was sent to St. Anne Pulp and Paper. They historically had the best price on pulp, so there was no fear that the owner was being undercut on his wood price. All veneer and sawlogs were scaled roadside free of charge and the buyers provided the trucking.

[Ron Scott]

Management plans are prepared to meet the landowners objectives for owning the property. If they are done with state or federal funding the landowner is usually expected to follow and implement the plan for at least a 10 year period.

But check with your state DNR as it depends upon any cost share funding received for the planning and implementation. If you fund it all yourself, as the landowner, you are not obligated to anything.

It sounds like you are on the right track for management of your private forest lands.  :P