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Pulling tree's over with rope.

Started by davidmw, February 02, 2018, 06:02:47 AM

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davidmw

I have 7 tree's that are roughly 10-13 dbh that are close to telephone wires. They are setting right where I want to build a shed and we want them down. Most of them do have some lean towards the lines, but nothing too steep, mostly pretty slight lean. After thinking about it, I have some heavy rigging gear for 4x4ing and I may try to pull them down. I've cut trees but I've never done this.

Gear I have:
roughly 250' of 5/8 static rope in two lengths (sterling htp)
2 10ton snatch blocks
A few heavy webbing tree anchors
a bunch of heavy tow chains
an electric winch 9000lb
a power puller winch 3ton
a tractor 25hp

My plan was to tie the rope as high on the tree as I could get it, anchor a snatch block to a big tree in felling direction, and have a friend with that side of the rope at a safe angle away from the desired landing zone anchored and hooked to a winch or tractor, applying slight tension while I make the notch cuts and back cuts. When I'm getting close to a good hinge, back off and give the thumbs up to start cranking......?  My worry is on trees this size is barber chairing due to tension on the line or some scenario like that. The two biggest tree's are a boxelder and a yellow poplar. Everything else is black cherry or red maple.

Could use some advise I guess. I think my gear is big enough, but the experience is lacking. If there is a better way to do this on my own, I'm all ears for sure..... one thing, is I was thinking aybe the hand winch would be better because it pulls a lot slower. I have no idea  ???
Woodland Mills hm126, Stihl ms441, Husqvarna 455, Echo cs500, Echo271, Massey gc1710 tractor, Woodmaster Belt sander, Shop Fox Molder, Dewalt planer, Jet Table saws, Milwaukee routers. The fun is just beginning.....

teakwood

I think you have it pretty much covered.

The most important and difficult thing is to know how much hinge you have to leave. Not too much an surely not a too narrow one!!
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

davidmw

Yeah that is what I'm thinking and wondering. My notch cut and how much hinge, like if there is anything I need to do differently than I would to cut a tree to lay down where it naturally wants to go. I would normally do around a 70 degree notch, about 1/4 into the tree and make my backcut a little above the notch corner. Usually they go down pretty easily, but I dont make it a habit of trying to drop difficult trees. I go for the easier ones that dont have much lean or obsticles....
Woodland Mills hm126, Stihl ms441, Husqvarna 455, Echo cs500, Echo271, Massey gc1710 tractor, Woodmaster Belt sander, Shop Fox Molder, Dewalt planer, Jet Table saws, Milwaukee routers. The fun is just beginning.....

teakwood

You have small trees so i would go 1/3 of the tree for the notch so the hinge is wider and stronger. i would let 1" of hinge and then put more tension  on the rope, should pull the tree right over 
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

davidmw

That makes sense. Thank you. I think I'd rather cut bigger trees to be honest. The smaller ones worry me more for some reason. We normally didnt cut much under 20dbh on my family farm and thats where my experience comes from. I learned to tap trees over with a wedge most of the time. These little ones are different in that way.
Woodland Mills hm126, Stihl ms441, Husqvarna 455, Echo cs500, Echo271, Massey gc1710 tractor, Woodmaster Belt sander, Shop Fox Molder, Dewalt planer, Jet Table saws, Milwaukee routers. The fun is just beginning.....

tawilson

I have to do a few of these every spring in my campground. I go easy on the tension till the back cut starts to open up. Then give it all she's got.
I should add that I like to have 3 people involved. One on the saw, one on the winch.and me watching the cut ready to signal when to stop cutting and start pulling.
Tom
2017 LT40HDG35 WIDE
BMS250 and BMT250 sharpener/setter
Woodmaster 725

chet

A good practice is after you are all rigged up, tension every thing up. While doing this watch the top of the tree to see that you are actually lifting it. If you give it a good pull and see no results, you should rethink your setup. The prepull will also test your rigging. When your satisfide your setup is correct, back off on the tention, and use only enough force to lift the tree, not force it.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

davidmw

Thanks for all the good advise. Definitely going to test the rig and see if its moving them some first. And a 3rd person. That would be no problem. One of the trees in particular is weird because it starts out like it is going to lean heavy towards the lines, and then about 6-8' it makes a bend back the other way in the direction I want it to go for the rest of the way up. Definitely want to see that one moving good before I start cutting. Havent dealt with one like it yet. 
Woodland Mills hm126, Stihl ms441, Husqvarna 455, Echo cs500, Echo271, Massey gc1710 tractor, Woodmaster Belt sander, Shop Fox Molder, Dewalt planer, Jet Table saws, Milwaukee routers. The fun is just beginning.....

firefighter ontheside

Putting a lot of tension on the tree and using a traditional backcut can certainly lead to a barber chair.  Have you ever done a boring backcut?
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tawilson

I just reread your first post. If they are sitting where your shed is going, won't you be digging the stumps out? If so I'd be digging them out with the tree attached.
Tom
2017 LT40HDG35 WIDE
BMS250 and BMT250 sharpener/setter
Woodmaster 725

davidmw

Quote from: firefighterontheside on February 02, 2018, 10:44:42 AM
Putting a lot of tension on the tree and using a traditional backcut can certainly lead to a barber chair.  Have you ever done a boring backcut?

Yes I have done a decent amount of bore cuts. My grandpa always taught us to cut leaning trees that way, but once I got comfortable with it I preferred to cut that way. Never done it on a smaller tree but that may be the best way.

Its funny because I have done some hinge cutting to create bedding areas on my land and you're actually trying to barber chair it, but its not as scary to me on a 6" tree when I'm trying to do it.
Woodland Mills hm126, Stihl ms441, Husqvarna 455, Echo cs500, Echo271, Massey gc1710 tractor, Woodmaster Belt sander, Shop Fox Molder, Dewalt planer, Jet Table saws, Milwaukee routers. The fun is just beginning.....

Resonator

It goes without saying, but be careful around power lines. I had one blow over one time in a windstorm onto the lines, and started setting itself on fire. If your bringing in a excavator to dig stumps, you could use that to push the trees as you cut. BE SAFE.
Under bark there's boards and beams, somewhere in between.
Cuttin' while its green, through a steady sawdust stream.
I'm chasing the sawdust dream.

Proud owner of a Wood-Mizer 2017 LT28G19

square1

The persons training me said the only purpose of the rope DURING traditional felling (not climbing) is to anchor the tree and keep it from going the one direction you absolutely do not want the tree to go. Once you're done cutting and have moved a safe distance from the tree, and only then do you apply tension YMMV

mike_belben

Once you undermine the tree with a notch and a kerf in the holding wood there is no rerigging, you need to get it right the first time.

I use bullrope and the mast on my big forklift to pull rope from 200 feet away.  I gaff up to set a highline then put some tension and start a normal notch.  Then pull some to see if i can influence the lean and put in more notch until the lean is toward my rope.  I DO NOT start the back cut until i have a tree leaning in my favor, toward my taught rope.   Then its just a nip on the tension side and a boring tree fall.  Biggest risk is not cutting enough notch out and snapping the rope by machine force.  Its not a terrible idea to try a practice tree against its lean where no damage occurs if you get it wrong. Also tests your equipment and nerve before showtime.

You do not ever want to release a tree that hasnt committed to your rope, then try to hurry up the winching and convince the tree to go your way against its commitment, you just dont get that much time.  At best itll go over sideways and get you on an idiots with chainsaws compilation.  I dont winch them down, i change the lean then saw conventionally to save the buttlog for harvest
Praise The Lord

firefighter ontheside

I will use a boring back cut on every tree that is physically big enough to do it.  10-13" should be no problem.  I became a much better faller of trees when I learned to do the boring back cut.  Within reason, I've been able to fall a tree opposite from its lean. 
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Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
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1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

Don P

A bore cut with tension can still barberchair. We were doing what you are talking about but had a failure to communicate. I was in bore when the tension was applied and the tree ripped down through the root and barberchaired. We can fly. Be careful and make sure everyone understands the plan. If I'm pulling I prefer something that can move. Winches are anchors, vehicles can keep up with gravity but understand what Mike is saying.

Skeans1

Normally when I have to line a tree I'll place tension on the tree before placing my undercut in about a 1/3 of the way in using a Humboldt to help make sure the tree gets off the stump, hinge will depend on a few factors also place wedges in the back cut if possible. Most back leaners or smaller trees say 24" on down I'll back cut first to set wedges before placing my undercut in just like a jack.

WV Sawmiller

   Not an expert tree cutter but, from experience, be sure your equipment is fast enough you can keep tension of the tree throughout the fall. I used an ATV winch to keep tension on a tree I was cutting. I was cutting by myself and when the cut passed the center line the tree started falling toward the direction of pull but got slack then shifted 90 degrees falling where I did not want it to go. (Ask my neighbors up and down the creek for several miles who were without power for a couple of hours.  :o)

   The last time I did this was a big 40' cherry snag leaning over my property fenceline. I took a ladder and hooked a 1/4" cable up about 25', ran it through a snatch block anchored to another tree, then to an ATV winch. Anchored the ATV to a tree so it did not get pulled and had my wife run the winch as I cut. I notched where I wanted it to go then feathered the back cut and the tree slowly leaned the right way and when it fell it landed parallel to fence exactly where I wanted it to go. Without my wife helping I could not have controlled it like that.

    Be careful and don't be embarrassed to get professional help if questionable.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Runningalucas

I've used a rope to aid in falling leaning trees on my property quite often.  What I do is just get my ladder, lean against the tree, secure about 15' up, and bowline knot to my truck 200' away.  I just take up the slack of the rope; so as to get a 'straight line'.  Then I do the notch, and start the back cut in a couple inches, then I have my brother in the truck, give a little more tension by having the truck in 'drive', and cut a couple more inches of the falling cut. 

Here's where having a couple two way radios come in handy, I can have him either slow up on the tension, or usually increase.  I've cut quite a few trees like this when close to something I don't want messed up.

If the shop is going there, I'd do as others have mentioned, and push the trees over; the weight, and length really aid in getting the stumps out without having to do a lot of digging. 
Life is short, tragedy is instant, it's what we do with our time in between that matters.  Always strive to do better, to be better.

Southside

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 02, 2018, 07:43:52 PM
    be sure your equipment is fast enough you can keep tension of the tree throughout the fall.
   

I am going to respectfully disagree with this statement in that it is dangerous to believe you can keep up with a falling tree always.  Trees roll, they swing, they break, chair, they have rot, they hang on another tree, they knock down another tree, etc and then go where ever gravity wants them to go - and you are not going to beat gravity.  Couple years ago I happened to be standing outside with my wife and looking to the west when a gum tree along the road just fell, no wind, no lean, no warning, she just fell.  It was in the open so there was no other crown to slow it down like when felling.  It was amazingly fast, and talk about a whump when she hit.  Went from 75' standing to on the ground in under a second, you are not going to keep up with that.  Went over to it and discovered the base was rotten and just ran out of holding wood was the reason for the fall.  Complete luck I was there and looking or I would have had no idea what happened until the cars started to back up.

Honestly what you are saying concerns me, I am glad you recognize that you don't have the experience doing this, and yes your plan sounds logical, but add in the utility lines and the danger factor has increased many fold.  See the "BBFC" line in my signature?  That means I have seen the "Big Blue Flash", and let me tell you it ain't fun. 

If you decide to do this the bore cutting is the only option, it gives you a trigger to release the tree.  If you are chasing the hinge on a leaner your risk of a chair is much higher.  How big of a saw do you have?  Make sure your chains are new out of the box sharp, speed will be essential here to getting those where you want them when releasing them on the back cut, and make sure your saw is full of gas and oil with every tree - this is not the time to run out.  If possible I would look at a doing a Humbodt or an open face cut to help keep the hinge wood on longer and control the fall better. 

Good luck, and by all means if you don't feel comfortable doing it - then don't - there is no loss of pride in walking away from something dangerous that does not need to be immediately addressed.  Just last fall I had to tell a friend I would not drop a big white oak for him as it was too close to his house and had way too much crown leaning toward the house.  Yes, I could have hooked my 38,000 lb skidder to it with the cable, and probably she would have gone where I wanted it to, but one lesson I learned in life the hard way is always ask yours self what happens if things don't go the way you need them to go? 
Franklin buncher and skidder
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WV Sawmiller

Southside,

   No offense taken by me. All I was trying to do was remind folks if you get slack on the line before the tree is headed where you want it going, bad things can happen. I do try to keep tension on the line till it finally starts falling in the direction I meant it to go. I realize I can't keep tension all the way to the ground.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

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