land advise needed

[catalina]

I know I am going to have to get a lawyer involved who knows our state laws but just looking for a little advise prior-AND im bored and wanted to share the latest happening with you all as I bet some might be able to relate to this. Below is a map, not drawn to scale of or place.
 

 
We bought property 2.5 yrs ago-parcels a1 and a2 split by a county road and bordered on the north by the state line separating Pa and Wv. We recently built a house on a1 and a barn on a2 and started fencing on a2. There is a gentleman that owns b1(Pa) and b2(Wv). he bought b1 10 years ago then bought b2, 5 yrs ago. He doesn't live there but has a small hunting cabin on b1-we hardly ever see him except at WV deer season when he shows up with a couple family members and several friends of theirs. He hunts very little of b1 as its small (less than 5 acres) and not good hunting territory as most of the land lays too close to other homes and just doesn't hold much game-so they stay there but hunt the b2 piece which is 45 acres clear-cut back in the 80s early 90s and left to grow up. Our Parcel a2  is 25 acres with about 5 acres that was clear-cut and left at the same time, about 10 that is mature mixed hardwoods not timbered since the 1940's and the remainder (10 acres) is open hay fields. we posted ours and needless to say he wasn't too happy. When we bought ours we had it surveyed (no property dispute) and did see and acknowledge existence of a deeded right of way through A2 to B2 along the straight line border of parcel c owned by someone entirely different that is deeded as only 16 feet wide. Both a1, a2 and b2 were all owned by the same person prior to us and b2s current owner. Here is the issue-there is an old path (shown in green) that cuts through part of one of our meadows and through the edge of our mature woods that meets up with his place, overlapping the right of way only about 50 feet worth that was made when our places previous owner gave permission to owner c to gain access to an area of c that was being timbered. The original right of way, almost 1200 ft worth was never maintained since the timbering in the 80s, contains the boulders from lord only knows (probably the path described and now has standing timber in it that is 14 to 22 inch DBH. He wants to open the right of way back up but he wanted to bring a dozer in and just push stuff and I said "NO". I don't want a mess to deal with plus the loss of the decent timber in the ROW. Since the right of way was never maintained and he does have access to b2 through b1 Im curious if Im going to have to honor it and what I can hold him too to not create a mess or do damage to my mature trees that the piddly 16ft ROW goes through. Perplexed! Thoughts anyone??? 

[Old Greenhorn]

Wow! First, great description of a complicated plot. Second, yes, you need a lawyer because the written law will trump and feelings or logic you may hold. Your state is a very old one and may have some funky stuff in it when you look at legacy stuff, rights of way, abandonment of same, etc. It would seem to me he is allowed to clear the right of way (which MAY imply he can take the trees, but I am not sure on this because he has a right to pass over it, but he doesn't own it, or does he?) but I am fairly sure he cannot impact your property or your ability to use and access your property in any way. Had he been running a brush hog down that 'road' once a year to keep it open, he would have likely been cutting out seedlings and saplings when he did it. I don't know if the law would see any difference between that sapling and a 40 year tree, he is still clearing the lane. None the less, I can see no way that he would be allowed to push his rubble onto your land.
 You need a lawyer at the very least to advise you of your rights (and his) and what the law says. DO that soon, before you make a wrong move you have to correct.
 Good Luck,
Tom

[alan gage]

Do you know a good surveyor? We have a good one in town here that will talk your ear off if you give him half a chance. He's good and finds issues like this very interesting. He's done a lot of reading and studying on land laws and has been witness in court cases. Of course his opinion isn't legally binding in any sort of way but if you had someone similar in your area he might be able to give you some general guidance about how the courts view such situations. And more importantly he might be able to recommend a good lawyer who is versed in land issues.

Alan

[SawyerTed]

No advice from me other than talk to a good real estate attorney who can explain it.  Did I say I hate stuff like this?

[WV Sawmiller]

   Yep! You need a lawyer. As I understand your description the access in the deed is along the straight line between A2 and C to B2. Why can't he open up his access there instead of cutting through the corner of you A2? Then that access could be used for A2, B2 and C. Good luck.

[dgdrls]

I know I am going to have to get a lawyer involved who knows our state laws but just looking for a little advise prior-AND im bored and wanted to share the latest happening with you all as I bet some might be able to relate to this. Below is a map, not drawn to scale of or place.
 

 
We bought property 2.5 yrs ago-parcels a1 and a2 split by a county road and bordered on the north by the state line separating Pa and Wv. We recently built a house on a1 and a barn on a2 and started fencing on a2. There is a gentleman that owns b1(Pa) and b2(Wv). he bought b1 10 years ago then bought b2, 5 yrs ago. He doesn't live there but has a small hunting cabin on b1-we hardly ever see him except at WV deer season when he shows up with a couple family members and several friends of theirs. He hunts very little of b1 as its small (less than 5 acres) and not good hunting territory as most of the land lays too close to other homes and just doesn't hold much game-so they stay there but hunt the b2 piece which is 45 acres clear-cut back in the 80s early 90s and left to grow up. Our Parcel a2  is 25 acres with about 5 acres that was clear-cut and left at the same time, about 10 that is mature mixed hardwoods not timbered since the 1940's and the remainder (10 acres) is open hay fields. we posted ours and needless to say he wasn't too happy. When we bought ours we had it surveyed (no property dispute) and did see and acknowledge existence of a deeded right of way through A2 to B2 along the straight line border of parcel c owned by someone entirely different that is deeded as only 16 feet wide. Both a1, a2 and b2 were all owned by the same person prior to us and b2s current owner. Here is the issue-there is an old path (shown in green) that cuts through part of one of our meadows and through the edge of our mature woods that meets up with his place, overlapping the right of way only about 50 feet worth that was made when our places previous owner gave permission to owner c to gain access to an area of c that was being timbered. The original right of way, almost 1200 ft worth was never maintained since the timbering in the 80s, contains the boulders from lord only knows (probably the path described and now has standing timber in it that is 14 to 22 inch DBH. He wants to open the right of way back up but he wanted to bring a dozer in and just push stuff and I said "NO". I don't want a mess to deal with plus the loss of the decent timber in the ROW. Since the right of way was never maintained and he does have access to b2 through b1 Im curious if Im going to have to honor it and what I can hold him too to not create a mess or do damage to my mature trees that the piddly 16ft ROW goes through. Perplexed! Thoughts anyone???

Good for you getting a survey.  You indicate the easement exists and its on the survey with no additional issues.
You have to be certain of exactly what was granted in the easement.  The exact language is critical, the locations seems certain by description
but less so by use??  
Who owns the parcel to the "left" of a1 & a2?   I would think they have an interest in the use of the easement as it appears to lead/exit on their lands
and may be an avenue to use to extinguish the easement altogether.  Can B2 be accessed from the highway?
FWIW I would seriously consider dropping the Green Line access.
Best
DGDrls

[lxskllr]

I'm not clear on why there's a ROW in the first place, unless it was road access for C? Doesn't matter I guess. If it's deeded, it's deeded, and it exists, so it has to be dealt with. I'm a surveyor, but not licensed, and don't work in PA or WV, so I'm not sure how it would be handled. My area's more suburban, so no one wants a pile of trash on their property. Stuff would be hauled out as the ROW was cleared, so I haven't encountered anything like this.


Just thinking out loud... Work on the ROW shouldn't affect your enjoyment of the property. You own to the property line, and I don't believe anyone else can pile boulders and timber along the ROW that would affect your access to the whole of your property. They can access their property on the deeded ROW, but not at your expense.


You definitely need a lawyer and a surveyor, but perhaps you can think of a solution that makes everyone happy, and reduces damage to your property. Deeds can be rerecorded, but it'll take some money, and preferably friendly relations amongst the parties involved. Try to stay on good terms, even if you don't like the guy. Maybe consider sacrificing a different part of the property to maintain the part you're interested in if possible.

[GAB]

Have you considered buying him out.
That would lessen the number of parties involved and just might solve the issue(s).
Gerald

[Southside]

For sure get a real-estate attorney involved - and not just some small town pizza attorney as the old commercial went.  You definitely want to research and find out if the easement was "perfected"  and that perfection has been maintained.  I found myself on the better end of a deal once when I was approached by a new neighboring landowner, he had purchased a large lot that was accessible only via ROW.  One of the other owners did not want the land being sold to the new guy and had a hidden ace - he knew the easement was only ever perfected for the electrical lines that served the big lot - that and nothing else, even though the previous owners had used the ROW for 20 years as access.  Consequently he would not allow the new owner to cross over his land to access the large parcel. Attorneys got involved and the answer that came out was yup the new guy would probably win - eventually, but the cost and time to fight it were not worth the battle if options existed.  

That diagnosis led him to come to me and ask if I wanted to buy the lot since I was the only abutting landowner who had road access, added 188 acres to the farm on that deal.  

[scsmith42]

Ditto the advice to hire an attorney.

If I were in your shoes though, I would want the easement to follow the original road, as I would not want one bisecting my property.

I think that you will find that you have to allow the easement deed holder the right to clear the easement, but if I were you I would clear it myself and take advantage of any timber revenue.  Have the other guy be responsible for removing the stumps and restoring the road though.

[Iwawoodwork]

First off I would say "NO to opening the green line abandoned logging road.  as new 
 trees have grown in the old log road that would show abandonment, also if there is no mention of green line road row access in the recorded deeds of a2 or b2 (you can research, less attny cost)  then ask him (b 1-2 owner) to show any Legal, recorded document that designates the green line as his access. Also talk to the surveyor of record for your property to see what he, they have/know. Did you have a title search and title ins. when you purchased? if so talk with them.
 currently I would tell him that you have no problem with him opening up the deeded 16 foot ROW along the property line but stipulate no pushing piles of debris beyond the 16' edge of legal right of way. then if that is not acceptable to the b2 owner it is time to speak to real estate attny. I would be there when he started opening it up, maybe even helping to assure that things were done as agreed.

[stavebuyer]

R.O.W and "Old County Road" sure cause a lot of disputes. The ROW is deeded and is/was/could be of benefit to B2. I would think you may find that your legally obligated to let him fix the road and cut or remove anything within the 16' in order to do so.

Realistically fixing an overgrown road and staying within the 16' will make it considerably more difficult and possibly prohibitively expensive. 

My take is that legally you can't stop him but realistically if you limit him to staying within the 16' you may create an enemy. Perhaps granting him conditional limited access beyond the 16' to fix the road and restore the effected area and reimburse your timber losses? 

[Remle]

Food for thought. On the front side of this, the ROW exist exactly as it says in the deed to your property. No you cannot stop him from opening up that ROW. No, he cannot push the debris on to your land. As to who owns the trees that would be removed is a good question ?? But forcing him to do so would increase the value of the property if he were to sell it in the future. Should you have any designs in buying the property in the future you might consider allowing him to access as he has done in the past with the stipulation that it does not change the recorded easement in any way and it is not to be allowed to continue if he were to sell the property to a new owner. Although their are no guarantee's it would work out in you favor in the future it may. IMHO it would be better to keep him as friendly as possible, beside long drawn out legal battles cost a lot of money are you prepared to pay the price ?

[catalina]

Thanks guys, everything said was pretty much spot on. I don't mind him reopening the old ROW but I just dont want a mess to have to deal with. Such is life lol. 

[btulloh]

Good luck and keep us posted.  This is interesting and complex.  As stated above, it all comes down to the recorded language and applicable laws.  That means getting an attorney involved.  I would GUESS that local law will put you where you want to be on this.  Here the laws on easements don't require the landowner to accept damages from ROW clearing, but that's here and not there.  

I wonder about the access granted on the green line for logging purposes.  This would usually be limited, one-time use for a specific purpose.  Seems unusual to have it recorded.  

Following.. . .

[Southside]

Who ever invented the ROW concept probably never had on on their own property is my guess. 

[dgdrls]

Right of access is one thing, and its not clear what "rights" were granted in your O.P. other than access

You may be the one who is actually required to keep the access open.

Until you know specifically what the grant provides him and encumbers you with,
I would not let him cut anything.

Simply put, you need to protect your interests 
As others have mentioned speak with the surveyor first.
Then an attorney if needed.

D

[LeeB]

If it's as grown up as you say it is I would file to have it deleted from the deeds.

[Iwawoodwork]

we  have 163 acre piece in Klamath co. Oregon that has several old dirt roads that go through to adjacent properties,but have not been used as ROW for adjacent properties. They show up on some maps and the only legal ones are the deeded documented ones, such as the power line, and my written deeded ROW access into our property. The power company and its contractors had been using an old dirt farm/log road as a shortcut to the powerlines and I posted and changed the road so only smaller trucks/pickups/atvs could access it, power co.  sent a letter about the change and posting.  I responded to then that there was no written documented ROW and they still had written easement access along the powerline road. Have not heard any more and that was about 5-6 years ago.   So if it was me I would say NO to the old abandoned logging road (green line) and yes to opening the documented 16' ROW along the property line. That wat your good property is not bisected by the neighbors ROW.     You do not know what the future for either of the neighbors property might include who and how much traffic.

[btulloh]

Wondering how this turned out . . .  

Any resolution yet?

[John Mc]

If it's as grown up as you say it is I would file to have it deleted from the deeds.

Not sure if you'll have much luck with that - at least you wouldn't in my area. If the parcel is landlocked otherwise, they won't let you take away access unless there is access established (at least on paper, if not both paper and on the ground) from some other way.

[catalina]

btulloh, no resolution yet but will keep you all posted. Gene