Cut my first English tying joint

[hayton1960]

I just cut my first English tying joint today. I got some odd 4x3 timber to do a practise and set out and cut a jowl post, plate and tie beam sections, and a brace. When I got to fit it together, I could see why you get a framing "bug" :D. I only needed to adjust the tie bem (dovetail) a very little. It went together very nearly perfectly almost by itself and drawed up nice and firm. I will add a section of rafter and also practise some scarfs as well.  Your tips and advice have proved very useful:P smiley_beatnik

[Jim_Rogers]

Show us your work.......

[hayton1960]

I would like to and have tried already to put pictures in the members gallery when I first registered, but failed miserably. What did I miss ??? I couldnt upload ???

[Jim_Rogers]

I'm sure there are instructions, somewhere.
First you need to make them small enough, get a re-sizing program and make them under 350x350 pixels and under 20 kb in size.
Then create a gallery.
Then upload and follow the upload instructions to place them into the gallery.
Once uploaded you can post a link to the gallery or a link to the picture by clickin on the line below the picture that says copy link for posting to threads (or something like that).
If all else fails send them to me and I'll do it for you.
Jim Rogers

[Furby]

This link is a thread on posting pic with pics to walk ya through it. ;)
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=12416.0

[Raphael]

We were supposed to practise first!!! 

[mark davidson]

which layout style did you use to cut the english tie join?

[hayton1960]

Hi Mark, welcome back
I drew the arrangement first on a big old piece of plywood, full scale.
Transferred my dimensions and positions from that onto the timber. Essentially French/English scribeing I reckon
I set out the brace using the same relationship of common to hip rafter size (1.4142) using a marked lath (story pole) to set out. As Jim suggested, I checked with a ruler.
When I did the dovetail I cut the tie beam (male) first, then scribed round it (Traced, or "coped") onto the plate to get its position.
The only problem was the little shoulders on the tie beam dovetail needed a little fettleing. I used Jims technique to trim and fettle the tenons.
PS check out the thread "nice cruck mark" very interested to hear about the cruck frame in your picture
taliking of pictures, I will get up some pics of the tying joint. Also a small king post truss I am making as well.
Do you use french scribe much or are you a "square rule man"?
Thanks for your comments cheers Jonathan

[mark davidson]

I use snapline layout.....

[hayton1960]

I never heard of that method before. Is it your own method or a mixtire of styles, or what? Sounds interesting
Cheers, Jonathan

[mark davidson]

it certainly relates to the japanese layout i've seen...
basically:
-place level and plumb crosshairs on the ends of your timbers
-snap lines between the level and plumb lines(the lines may be in the center of the timber, or along a mortise edge or housing line....)
-layout using the snap lines as you would use the timber edge in square rule.

now you can use waney, crooked, twisted or whatever timbers(aren't they all???) and your joinery will come together because the snaplines are straight....this is one advantage, another advantage gained is that you can access the simple line which lies in the center of the timber(at the place where the crosshairs connect) this can greatly simplify the situation when you are dealing with slopes/angles/etc.
the disadvantage is that it is more challenging to have the surfaces come together, as in square rule. This disadvantage is overcome to some degree by placing the level lines in relation to the "reference" face of the timber. another way to overcome this disadvantage is to use different size timbers throughout the frame and size things down at connection points....

[hayton1960]

Hi Jim,

Eventually, as I promised, I posted some photos in the gallery department, of my first attepmts to cut an English tying joint and also a kingpost truss. I had to crop them right down on photo shop elenmts and even then some wouldnt fit through the window of my pooter so some are missing (I did a collar tie truss as well) but I have downloaded the resizing thingy y'all recomended so will experiment with that. thanks everbody!

[Jim_Rogers]

Jonathan:
What you need to do is not crop but reduce in size. You should be able to resize by pixel count.
This will make the entire photo smaller, and not lose any of the photo. Try making a photo 350 x 350 pixels before you post it to the gallery. If you have a photo that says it's size is 400 x 600 or something like that, change the 600 to 350 and the 400 should reduce to the correct proportion to make the photo look correct. Basically whatever the larger of the two number is, change it to 350 or less.
This should make it small enough for the file count of under 20 kb. If not just reduce to 325x??? or something smaller like ???x300 until the file size gets down under 20 kb. The it should upload ok and view fine without losing any of the surrounding image.
Nice tight fits by the way!!!!!!
This is the tolerance level you should work towards in all joints......
Great job......

Jim Rogers
Jim Rogers Timber Designs
Jim Rogers Sawmill
117-R Jewett Street
Georgetown, MA 01833-1833
800-422-6250
www.jrsawmill.com

[hayton1960]

Thanks for your kind comments Jim
Those samples were done with either 4x3, 3x2 or 2x2. completing them to an exact pre drawn plan size has developed my confidence, and the helpful advice particularly from here is extremely encouraging too. I was a mil or so out in places with braces and rafters not being exactly flush for the outside face of the building. In the real world with advanced precision, skills and experience would flushness be obtained straightaway or would you just dress it flush with an adze or plane ;)?
I got the urge to test the kingpost truss with concrete to see how much weight it will take :D
D'ye know what- I really LIKE cutting joints, in fact I think I enjoy the setting out phase best! Then again I havent cut a full frame and got it raised just yet...I bet that beats all!
When I saw that French barn (the one being extended where the old and new were being matched up) that was the one that made me really seriously think that I wanted to cut some frames for myself, and also repair some old ones. It breaks my heart to see the fine colombage frames neglected & uncared for and falling into ruin. Next week I am taking my family to stay for a week in a converted mediaeval tithe barn in Suffolk. My wife is just starting to recover from cancer treatment, it will be a nice break for her as we never had a normal holiday this year. From what I have seen it is an astounding frame with traditional tying joints, and I will post pictures when I return.
Do you know if you can reduce the pixal using the photoshop elements without having to process them with anything else?
Cheers, Jonathan

[Jim_Rogers]

Jonathan:
On the layout side all joints should be flush, a mm is nothing to worry about. If this was a showing face and you wanted it to be perfect then you would move some wood to make it flush, but I wouldn't worry about a mm 10 or more yes, but then you'd better not be cutting joints 10 mm out in the first place.
If the entire frame is planed and the joints aren't truly flush then plane off the extra. If the frame isn't planed and you plane off some it will show right up so I wouldn't then. You'd adjust your joint during full frame fit-up to make the joint as flush as possible on layout side. This could mean trimming off some more of the tenon or shimming it out to make things flush. It really depends on the "why". That is why isn't this joint flush? You have to learn how to inspect and determine what is wrong, in the first place and then once you've figured out what is wrong, how do we change things to make it right. It takes a bit of looking at it and understanding all your options of what to change in order for things to line up right when you put it back together again. You'll have to do some to get the experience of doing it. But you need to understand that if I change this, just a little, what else will it change? Sometimes nothing, sometimes it will.
Here is an example.
If you put together a bend shaped like an "H" and you measure across the bottom of the posts, outside to outside, and it's true to the designers dimension but the brace in the corner has a gap at the shoulder, what do you do. If you move the bent until the gap is closed then the dimension could be too short at the bottom and too much at the top. So, what do you do?
Well, if the layout is correct and the brace pockets are in the correct spots then the brace could be too short. If you measure the brace and the length is ok, then the brace mortise pockets must not be in the correct spots.
If you read my story called "Brace problems during a frame fit up test" at https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7605.msg104228#msg104228  I think you'll see what I'm talking about.

My point is to inspect and make the proper change needed to correct the problem and not create another problem someplace else.

I'm not real familiar with photoshop, but most picture programs will allow you to change pixel sizes. In my program it's called image size, some may call it canvas size. Try and find it and try it on a copy of one photo and see how it makes the changes, then hit save as and change the name and add something like brace-a.jpg and then next time save as brace-b.jpg and then go to the folder where these are stored and look at the size of brace-a.jpg to see how bit the photo is. You may have to change your setting so that file size shows in windows explore view, by selecting list or details, from the pull down menu, I believe under "view".
Try it and let me know how you make out......

Jim Rogers
Jim Rogers Timber Designs
Jim Rogers Sawmill
117-R Jewett Street
Georgetown, MA 01833-1833
800-422-6250
www.jrsawmill.com

[hayton1960]

Hello again Jim ;D
I know what you mean about assesing problems carefully. EG when your doing skirting (coping the profile) and it looks hopelessly gappy and out, then a little shave with the gouge, undercut there a bit and it then just drops in nicely.
I just had a look at the section about braces. I guess youd have to cut a new brace in that case? Then use it again elsewhere but cut the pockets a tad shorter than usual?
I must admit I was very pleased how well my first brace turned out. It was about 30" long, and I used a story pole to establish the pocket positions. I honestly am amazed it went so well, I never had to do any fiddling or fettling on that one. I checked and rechecked several times, story pole, steel tape, folding rule, story pole....When I pegged it there was a very slight twist, (less than 1/2 a mil) that was caused by my tendency to rip the tenon cheeks a tad off the paralel-I am constantly working on that however. Now you mention it a couple of shaves with a chisel would have enabled me to straighten up, even if the joint became a little sloppier. :D
Are those curved braces ash? Natural glue-lam strength! How did you set them out & fit them up to the rest of the frame? Did you scribe them by any chance ??? That mix of milled and wild wood looks really nice in my opinion.
Cheers Jonathan
Cheers, Jonathan

[Jim_Rogers]

I guess you'd have to cut a new brace in that case?

Yes, cutting a new brace would have solved the problem all together. But as the brace was on an outside gable end bent the gap would not show in the finished product as it would be covered with the siding and the housing would hide it from the inside. So I just moved the post to the correct outside distance and bored the peg hole to hold it there. When we assembled the building we just pushed the peg in and it moved the brace out (push bore, instead of draw bore) to where everything aligned. That's why I've always said it's better to cut things a little to long then trim later during fit-up then to have them too short to begin with.

Then use it again elsewhere but cut the pockets a tad shorter than usual?

Yes, that would be a solution to using the piece over again. But that brace would then be locked into being used only in that spot in the frame and no other brace could take it's place. In this case it would be labeled for this specific spot. Most braces aren't labeled that much as they can be interchangeable in most frames.

Those braces are pine.

I'll have to write it up another time, soon.

Jim Rogers
Jim Rogers Timber Designs
Jim Rogers Sawmill
117-R Jewett Street
Georgetown, MA 01833-1833
800-422-6250
www.jrsawmill.com