iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

New member with big plans

Started by JodyOleary, May 29, 2012, 03:40:28 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JodyOleary

My wife and I bought 14 acres in Northern Virginia near Leesburg, VA about two years ago.  The lot is wooded with many types of trees.  We have agreed that we want to build a timber frame home there, we will more than likly live there for the rest of our lives.  I would like to use the wood that is on the lot to build the home and we have also agreed we want to leave the lot as wooded as possible.

My first question is about the Virginia Pine trees.  I have been told to cut them all down because they will eventually fall over or twist apart.  I have noticed that most of the trees that have fallen over are the Virginia Pine, I guess the shallow root ball being the cause of that.  Are Virginia Pine trees good to use for timber framing?  I have quite a few of these trees some 60 feet tall.

My wife and I are still trying to figure out if we can afford this type of home and we intend to talk to a builder some time this year.  We are in no hurry, we have a five year plan to live out there, however I know it takes a long time to harvest your own logs.

I will have multiple questions in the future but for now if I know I can save money on the timber (by using my own) that should help us in proceeding down the timber frame home route.  Currently we are getting a septic field approved thats been in the works for over a month now.

Thanks in advance for any help the members can share.

Jody

Jim_Rogers

Jody:
Welcome to the timber framing section of the forestry forum.

I don't have any experience with "Virginia pine". So I can't help you with that.

Jim Rogers

PS. I have just reviewed my copy of the NDS book (National Design Specifications) and Virginia pine is located in the species combinations of "mixed Southern Pine".
That section is the section where the design values are given.

For example Eastern white pine Fb value for bending is 575, Mixed southern pine Fb value for bending is 850. Which would seem to say it is somewhat stronger. However there is a foot note that says the value has to be adjusted by multiplying it by .78 (850*.78= 663) Which again means is is just a bit stronger then eastern white pine.

Any frame design you come up with should be checked by a professional engineer experienced in using Virginia pine.

Again good luck, and hopefully someone else will let you know of their experiences with Virginia pine.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

WDH

It is stronger than white pine and weaker than the main four commercial southern pines, loblolly, shortleaf, slash, and longleaf.  It is not weak in any sense, it is just not as strong as the main four.  Dimensioned properly, it should work fine.  It is going to be knotty.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

dukndog

Welcome Jody!!

Looks like a few have answered. Jim and WDH both have great experience.

Rich Miller
WM LT-15G25 w/PwrFeed, Mahindra 3510, Husky 385xp, Stihl MS261 and a wife who supports my hobby!!

Thehardway

Jody,

Welcome fellow virginian.  Make sure of the correct identification of your trees by taking them to your local state cooperative extension office or forestry dept.  If you cant find one of those, a university botany dept. such as UVA or GMU should be able to accurately identify using bark, branch, needles and cones.  A good picture showing the shape of the tree is also helpful.  If you have already done this then good for you.  "Locals" often call many trees by collective terms which can include a wide range of species with varying strength charachteristics.  True Virginia pine is Pinus virginiana Mill.  It is also called fiedpine, scrub pine and a number of other terms.

It sounds from your description that it is correct but you should be sure before paying an engineer to design based on its properties.

I have used a considerable amount of it in my frame and have learned a few lessons about it.  It likes to twist as it dries.  This is probably going to be your biggest challenge.  The knots can dull a bandmill blade so have plenty on hand and keep them sharp. 

It does not work to bad with chisels and saw and it bores nicely.  It can contain pitch pockets and the knots can be dangerous if they fly loose when working and sawing.

It is very strong if clear sections of the trunk are used or the knots are properly placed.

My advice is to talk with your local building inspections office and make sure they are OK with you building with your own lumber/timbers.  They may require you to have it all grade stamped and have a stamped engineers plans.  This could cause some issues in your budget and in your construction timeline.  It may also mean that when you figure in your harvesting time, gas, blades, transportation, lodging and paying the grader and engineer you may not save as much as you think in a DIY operation vs. buying a pre-engineered TF system from a supplier.  On the flip side, your inspector may be OK with your plans and not require all that.  It all depends.

You may find more savings by using a TF from a supplier and milling other items from your own trees such as siding, flooring, trim work etc. that are non-structural and do not require an inspectors sign off.

How big do you plan to start out and how complicated is your plan?  What kind of spans are you planning on getting out of your trees?

I'm to your south just off Rt. 29 near Gretna, VA.   I just got moved in my house and there is still a lot to do.  We poured the footers in '07 and had a 2 year plan.  That 2 year plan did not have room for things like funerals, weddings, birthdays, vacations, vehicle breakdowns, snow storms etc. so it ended up a 5 yr plan.  On the positive side the only hired labor we had was pouring the slab, pumping concrete, and installing well and septic.  Everything else was me, my wife, my mother, Father-in-law, and occasional help from a friend and a neighbor or two.  We worked weekends and a few weeknights after regular 9-5 job. I ended up about 20k over budget but I overbuilt most things and we did a pretty high end kitchen.



Don't get discouraged.  The reward of building your own home with your own hands and being able to sit back and look at it at the end is priceless.  keep asking ?'s. the folks on here are very helpful and like a challenge.

   
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

Ianab

Regarding the Pine. although it's not one of the more "desirable" species as far as commercial value is concerned, this doesn't make it useless either.

If the trees are ~60ft tall, that's about as big as they get, and they are prone to blowing over. So my thinking would be to harvest and use them while they are still useful. As long as you are getting good quality logs the timber will be similar in strength to most other Pines, and just design your building with the specs of this species. If you are harvesting your own timbers it's not a big deal if you need to go up a size in any beam if needed, or put in some extra structural members.

Sawing beams will recover a useful amount of other 1X and 2X dimension lumber for other uses around the building too.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

JodyOleary

Thanks for all your replies.

Thehardway, you bring up some good points.  I identified the pines as Virginia pine using the VA Dept. of Forestry website and a book I bought.  My wife is a graduate of George Mason University, maybe she can use them to confirm it is indeed Virginia pine.  As far as it being knotty, I like that look so it won't bother me as long as it doesn't affect the structural integrity.  My wife is a civil engineer so maybe she can ask around to her friends and find someone who has experience in timber frame structures.  Good point asking Loudoun County if my trees would have to be inspected and graded prior to use.

We want around a 2000 - 2500 sq. ft. home but I don't know what type of spans etc. just yet.  We are in the very early stages, still looking at magazines to get ideas.

About how long do beams need to be air dried?  I was thinking two years.  Is there any way to combat warping during the process?

WDH

Virginia pine has short little needles with two needles to the fasicle (the needles are bundled in twos) and the needles are coarse (sort of thick and leathery) and strongly twisted.  Shortleaf also has short needles, and they come in twos and threes, but mostly twos and the needles are not coarse and are only very weakly twisted.  The bark of virginiia pine is decidely scaley, very much so on older trees, and the color has an orange cast in overall effect.  Shortleaf has bark that is dark brown and ridged, not scaly.  The cones of virginai pine are golf ball sized and the interior of the cone scale as you look down into the open cone is purple.  Same size for shortleaf, but the inside of the cone scales are a drab light brown.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Thehardway

Jody,

Traditional timberframing was typically performed on "green" timbers.  That is to say that the timbers were not dried before joinery was cut.  They may have been "seasoned" which usually means the trees are felled, and then left for a short period of time either cribbed in log form with the bark removed to prevent rot and beetle infestation or hewn or milled.  They were then stacked and joinery was cut soon after.

It usually takes  a couple months of good drying weather to see if the timbers are going to twist.  If they are there is not much you can do but to let them twist and then re-mill.  Be careful about stacking and drying.  Virginia pine is very prone to molding and staining if it is stacked to close and covered in a way that heat and moisture is trapped.  It can ruin your timbers.

Some timbers will continue twisting for up to 3-4 years.  Best way to avoid twisting timbers is to look for trees that are straight grained rather than spiral.  Some of this can be seen in the bark before the tree is felled.  It becomes real obvious if the bark is peeled and there is some light surface checking.  Avoid the spiral.

A few of the big commercial TF companies use Kiln dried timbers which are obtained using an RF kiln for the bigger dimensioned timbers.  It is very expensive.  To air dry a timber to 12% MC would take 5-10 years and in many cases would not even be possible.  Be honest with yourself right now and realize that you are going to have some gaps in your joinery as things dry and this is the nature of using wood.  Don't get upset if that beautiful beam you work so hard to plane and sand gets a 1/2' wide check in one side and is no longer square.  Don't get upset if your joint which fit perfect when you cut and assembled has a 1/4" gap 3 years later.

A stand of Virginia pines that has grown tall together seldom have much branch growth at the base.  Therefore the first 24 feet or so can yield almost knot free timbers.  Logs closer to the crown will be almost too knotty to use.  I leave the tops above the first couple branches for squirrel habitat.

Remember  that even though you may like the knotty pine look, knots effect the grade and structural use of the wood.


Rules of thumb for design.

Keep your simple spans to 16' or less.

Over 16' and you will likely need support posts or have to use a truss design

TF Trusses over 24' can be difficult to build and handle.

If possible use heavy hardwoods for posts and lighter softer woods (pine) for horizontal spans.

Be realistic in your plans.  Those fancy coffee table picture books have some really neat designs and ideas but some of them are difficult for the DIY builder to pull off without a big engineering bill or unlimited use of a crane.  Keep it simple.

Study up on traditional continuous plate vs. bent style framing.  They are two entirely different systems which both have their own unique benefits and pitfalls. If you have some nice straight Virginia pines wich are big enough to yield a 40' plus 8" X 8"'s I would seriously consider a traditional plate method of timberframing like Jack Sobon uses.  It will result in  a stronger frame, less sagging over time and fewer joints to cut and assemble.  If you have to work with smaller pieces or plan to add bays one at a time, a modern bent style like Benson uses might be more practicle.

Buy all the Sobon and Chappell books you can find.

Consider attending a class, workshop or a TF guild rendezvous. 
 

Know what kind of enclosure system you are going to use over your frame and design the frame with it in mind.

Build a scaled model of your frame out of small 1X lumber and join it with toothpick pegs.  It will help you identify any problem areas of putting it together in full scale.

Virginia Pines suffer the most when in a stand and companion trees are cut or overly thinned.  Never leave just one or two standing by themselves.  They will almost certainly blow down.  If left in large groups they survive much better.  They need to be able to lean on each other for support in high winds.  If they are grown individually from start they will not get so top heavy and can be much better specimen trees although they will be nearly worthless for lumber due to the number of knots and low branches.

Don't cut your trees and leave the bark on them unless you want a lot of beetle damage to the surface of the logs.  They will be in them within weeks and can make a real mess.

These are all lessons I have learned "thehardway" hence the moniker.

Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

Thank You Sponsors!