land owner got ripped off?

[ga jones]

I here alot Of this here and out in the woods. So heres my question. If a land owner calls me and I go in look at timber find out what they want to cut.And make them a low ball offer. And thy accept. Whose in the wrong........
Sometimes There are circumstances for low figures; steep side hills, blow downs, swamps, bad landing areas, long pulls. I bid with these in mind.Is it wrong? 

[TimRB]

If both you and the land owner are happy with the price, how could it possibly be wrong?

Tim

[Tom]

It depends on whose side of the forest you are on.

You as a logger are basically concerned with getting the most dollars for the smallest amount of work.  That isn't meant to be demeaning, but your incentive is built around crew wages, equipment and prices at the mill.

If the land-owner (generally the ignorant one in these cases) had a Forester speaking for him.  The concern would probably be more about Trees that are left, trees expected in the future and the continued viability of the owners wood lot.

Ethics enters here, but I'll not get into that because I'll not make judgement.

So, to answer your question, It depends.

In theory, the Logger is working for himself and the Forester is working for the land-owner, so it depends on what ethics you put to task.

The shame of it all is that all land-owners can't be Foresters. 

[SwampDonkey]

Nine chances out of ten, the guy that didn't get the job usually has his say as he tries to trash your methods and reputation. I've seen woodlots that had such poor wood that no matter who cut it, the neighborhood watchman will come in after and say they trashed the woods and didn't pay enough and all they are looking at is stumps and standing wood that represents what was standing and if anything should have also been cut.

[locustoak]

I'm not a forester, but I think the ethics part would apply more toward how you leave the woods. 
Have you ever tried to sell something at a pawn shop?  If both sides agree, I don't think it's wrong, unless the owner is a 90-year old lady in poor health.

[Tom]

Ethics is driven by guilt.  Some people can withstand a lot more guilt than others.

[Texas Ranger]

You have to bid according to what you see, you shoot a low ball so that you will cut out your bid.  No problem with that, only on how low a low ball.  If you have been a logger for awhile and know your business, you can get close, if you have a bid situation with other loggers, your bid will be close, if you want the tract.  

What we talk about is what is fair to the landowner, like Tom said, a shame more land owners are not foresters, but they can hire one.  The foresters cost will be covered by your low ball first contact bid.  

We don't dislike loggers, you guys make our living for us in a certain sense.  But just as there are dishonest foresters, there are dishonest loggers.  We try to hit a fair balance for the land owner. both in what we do and what you do.

Oh, Tom used the classic forester term,  "it depends".  Which is the real answer.

Stick around, we only attack steaks, hamburgers, and french frys.  This is to keep in the tradition of every post ending up about food.

[WDH]

How would you feel if you bought a new piece of equipment that you did not know much about, then come to find out later, that you paid the Dealer twice as much as you should have?  It is one thing to make a good deal, and it is another to gouge someone who is ignorant.

[northwoods1]

Ethics is driven by guilt.  Some people can withstand a lot more guilt than others.

boy I don't know... some people I have run across will blatantly rip others off and not think anything of it, at all. I'm not talking about loggers in particular but I see it a lot in the antique trade. Like recently I know of a guy who was doing some yard work for a lady and when he went in to her house he saw on a bookshelf this big old book, he asked about it and she showed it to him. Low and behold he had just been watching the antiques roadshow and saw this very book on there, otherwise he wouldn't have known anything about it probably never read a book the whole way through in his life, but anyway, on the roadshow they gave the appraisal. For a 3 volume set, mckinney & hall, the History of The Indian Tribes of North America - 1836-1844..... $80,000. Here he had one volume and recognized it offered her $200 for it and she accepted. he put it on ebay and promptly sold it for $12,000. He was real proud of himself.

I don't know when I buy wood I try to be fair. All I want is to make a decent living doing an honest days work. Of course whenever your bidding something lump sum you have to estimate conservatively and come up with a number your comfortable with, but that is not the same as sticking it to an uneducated landowner.

[Magicman]

My opinion, every timber sale should go through the landowner's forester who has done a cruise and bidded the sale.

At least, all of mine will.

[northwoods1]

My opinion, every timber sale should go through the landowner's forester who has done a cruise and bidded the sale.

At least, all of mine will.

I sure respect your opinion as I do everyone else. But I disagree I don't think a forester is necessary in every case some landowners are fully capable and knowledgeable enough to do without. And some jobs are straightforward not requiring marking and it is very common for landowners, around these parts) to just get payed by mill scale on actual wood cut. Some jobs might not be big enough to justify a forester either. Hope all the foresters here don't take offense about my comment.

[Magicman]

I respect what you said, and wish all of the honest loggers didn't live in Wi.

Actually we have honest loggers here. Most are, but even they need to know that someone is checking.    Honest folks are more honest when someone is watching.  You should never let the mouse guard the cheese.

They commonly cut trees, even with the landowner's knowledge, that were growing well and really needed to stay.  Maybe a junk tree or two needed to be removed to give them room.  That is where a Forester's expertise comes into play.

There is more than one mill.  Some will take a load to "their" mill on the sly.

Foresters have a list of reputable loggers and they all get to bid on the same cruise.  Also Foresters get paid a %.  Small jobs pay less and large jobs pay more.  All are justified.

And I am not a Forester.   

[Skiddah]

Let me preface this post by saying it's not directed at anyone in particular.  Any use of "you" is simply the collective you and means anyone and no one in particular.

Ethics and ethical work practices are often a balancing act.  We're all in the business to make money.  Everyone does it differently.  Some people have no problem blurring the lines, others walk the straight and narrow.  That's society for you.  Ethics also shape the future of business.  Practices that are deemed unethical are often outlawed, looked down upon, or ruled out as an option for conducting proper business.  Everyone's ethical background is different, and values differ from one person to the other.

Lowballing for the sake of lowballing, to me is unethical.  Everyone wants to get the best price out there, that's just good business sense.  Perhaps I hold myself to a higher ethical standard, I don't know.  Lowballing has a lot of negative connotations that surround it.  To me, low balling means that you know the value of whatever is at stake an are purposefully driving the price low.  For the sake of this discussion, let's stick with the phrase, lower bid.  To me this would mean that there are factors, such as terrain, value of the wood, etc. that ga jones mentioned, that would drive down the value of the bid.  This is not unethical, should you broach the subject the right way.  How does that happen?  Transparency, information, and communication.

Transparency lends a large helping hand to negotiations.  Should you need to come up with a lower offer, offering up some reasons why does a lot to keep things on the ethical side.  Without divulging too many trade secrets, give the reasons why your offer is what it is.  I'm not saying you need to open the books are tell everyone your bidding practice, that would be crazy and a quick way to send you business south.  But if the ground is too steep and the value of the wood is too low, say so.  Back it up with my next point, information.

Information is anyone's most valuable resource.  This goes directly to the heart of what WDH posted about a machinery purchasing scenario.  I agree with the statement for the most part, but would take it a step further.  Any time you're going to become involved in a deal, you need to surround yourself with good and pertinent information.  PT Barnum said, "A sucker is born every minute," but also a less than ethical person is born every minute to take full advantage of that sucker.  What separates a savvy business person or savvy landowner from the suckers is information.  If it means consulting a forester, getting more bids, or simply cracking a book, knowledge tips the scales in your favor.  To readdress WDH's scenario, it is the DUTY of the person(s) to find out all the ins and outs of the arrangement, values, or anything else that helps them arrive at a fair deal.

Communication, my final step in the ethics path, acts as the delivery method for my first two items.  Dialog both ways in the deal is crucial to make sure that everyone's concerns, comments, problems, and/or difficulties are addressed up front and in the open.  Be very wary of the person who dodges the issue, cannot answer your questions in a satisfying manner, or stays a little too quiet at the wrong times.  Not everyone has all the answers, but the people that you want to deal with direct you to where to find the information, should they not seek it out themselves.

I can only speak from a contractor's standpoint, since that is how I make my living.  I see it as my ethical duty to inform the uninformed.  Would it be easy to blind side someone and make the quick buck?  I assume it would, but never having done it, I fear that it would catch up to me in the long run.  We all know the stories.  XYZ Logging crosses boundary lines, gets fired from multiple jobs, leaves a big mess, the list runs on.  But what generally happens to XYZ Logging?  They don't last.  Sooner or later the powers that be catch up to them, or karma, if you will, wields it's heavy hand.  They get fired, fined, or locked up.  They get put out of business.  This doesn't generally happen as quickly as we'd like, and good people get hurt along the way, but eventually unethical practices catch up to them.

What makes you likable and successful in business is your name and by extention, your reputation.  People hire us because they cannot do it themselves, or do not want to do it themselves.  They respect us for the hardwork and dedication that the vast majority of us bring to the profession.  What brought a smile to my face on all the jobs I've done, is taking that time to explain to someone who didn't know (Can you tell I was a teacher at one time?).  When I answer their questions honestly, respectfully, and fully, I can see that sense of appreciation they have for what I'm doing, and that really makes it worth it for me.

Bottom line, only you can fully determine what is ethical in all situations.  There's certain standards to be upheld, but only you can follow them and accept full responsibility for any and all results.  That's the risk that we, as business people, take every day.

[Texas Ranger]

Quote from Northwoods1

I sure respect your opinion as I do everyone else. But I disagree I don't think a forester is necessary in every case some landowners are fully capable and knowledgeable enough to do without. And some jobs are straightforward not requiring marking and it is very common for landowners, around these parts) to just get payed by mill scale on actual wood cut. Some jobs might not be big enough to justify a forester either. Hope all the foresters here don't take offense about my comment.

No offense, and I do agree not all sales need a forester, but, how does a landowner know he is getting paid for each load?  I know, mill tickets, but how does he know the logger is giving him all the mill tickets, from all the mills?  How does he know how much is cut and what the volume/value is from his sale?

Does he have a contract?  With the mill or the logger? Did the logger use the typical one paragraph contract?  I buy, you sell?  Is the logger certified, does he know what an SMZ is?  Can he identify an SMZ?  

In most cases, the foresters pay for them selves in accuracy of a sale.  That 10 per cent or so that loggers take off the top for bid security usually pays the forester.

No offense intended.

[SwampDonkey]

I never even got that when administering sales at the marketing board. Got $3.50 a cord plus 2.2% in sales. 0.5 % of that went back into management. But, why we could afford this arrangement was the fact our office did $12M in sales, not all off administering sales. The $$ from the administered sales was less than 1 %. We would have maybe 3 sales on going at most at any point in time. But non-the-less 2.2% on gross is quite a sum, but it paid salaries of 3 or 4 office staff and 2-3 full time fielders and a couple summer students and vehicles. We weren't getting rich, our organization is "not for profit" and overseen by a commission of woodlot owners and board chairmen, industry and government appointees. The system works because I've seen at least four managers get the axe from "having their hands in the till, so to speak" The boards have also saved a lot of people from going bankrupt or loosing thousands when mills fail.

[Magicman]

I failed to take one point into consideration with my above post, Money.

My motive and goal is to improve my timber stand with select cutting with no regard to the income amount.  I feel that if timber is sold for any other reason than to improve the quality of that tract, then the tract loses.  In the long run, that tract will generate far more income for the landowner if money is not the motive for cutting.

If the motive is to generate a certain amount of money or as much money as possible or to just cut to a certain diameter and the landowner is supervising the operation, then OK.  Go for it.

[WDH]

Well said, Skiddah.

[northwoods1]

No offense, and I do agree not all sales need a forester, but, how does a landowner know he is getting paid for each load?  I know, mill tickets, but how does he know the logger is giving him all the mill tickets, from all the mills?  How does he know how much is cut and what the volume/value is from his sale? Does he have a contract?  With the mill or the logger? Did the logger use the typical one paragraph contract?  I buy, you sell?  Is the logger certified, does he know what an SMZ is?  Can he identify an SMZ?  

In most cases, the foresters pay for them selves in accuracy of a sale.  That 10 per cent or so that loggers take off the top for bid security usually pays the forester.

No offense intended.

Well.... I don't know I guess the landowner just trusts the logger 8)... hey all I can say is I know a lot of operators, in my experience!!, that I know and who operate around these parts that cut jobs for landowners and consulting foresters are not needed in many cases. Look at it this way... why would a logger who is in it for the long term want to screw people over? And like what I had been describing in my previous post sometimes the expertise of a forester is not needed some jobs are more straightforward lfor example non-log jobs, just pulpwood where everythign is cut or just a certain species is cut. And payment is made by mill scale. I don't know... actually when I think about it, in 24 years of logging on private,county,state,federal, and tribal land ... most of that time I was cutting under a forester. I don't know though... I guess in short I would say I think there are some landowners who are competent enough to make certain kinds of managment decisions, I mean I've cut has to be hundreds of jobs without a foresters guidance and no body got screwed. I've subcontracted to dozens of operators that would tell you the same. Probably sacriligious to say that here :-[  and hey, somebody please acknowledge that there are ignorant and crooked foresters too please :D again, I can't believe how fine everyone is on this board there is a lot of really good people here, but there are ignorant and crooked/un-ethical foresters that is just a fact sorry to bring it up :-[

[WDH]

OK, I will say it, "There are ignorant and crooked/un-ethical foresters."  I have known a few in my time. 

There is a certain percentage of crooked/un-ethical people in any profession, even the clergy. 

[MDLogging]

Reading these posts brings me to mind of a funny story that my buddy was telling me about last week.  He said a man called him about clear cutting a tract of timber a while back.  He cruised it, gave the man a price of $23,000 and the man said he'd think about it.  He never heard back from the man and the guy wouldnt return my friends calls so my friend just assumed he sold it to someone else.  A few weeks past and my buddy got a bid sheet from a consulting forester on the same exact piece of timber he gave the man a price on weeks prior.  Needless to say,  my friends bid stayed the same($23,000), he was the highest bid and the man had to hand a check to the consulting forester for $2300.

[Tom]

I'm sure there are stories like that circulated on both sides. Well, at least two people got put to work.

Hopefully the land-owner will get something for his $2300 other than a bid sheet.  Foresters get measured by the fact that they got paid, a lot of times, when it's easy to overlook the fact that they have a lot of book learning, schooling, OJT, apprenticeships behind them.  They will also cruise and design the replanting and site prep, then follow through with maintenance, if so desired.

Being a land-owner, I can appreciate both professions.  Loggers have a tough job, but when it comes right down to it, loggers work for themselves and the mill.  I've never regretted the advice I have gotten from Foresters and if it weren't so readily available would have had my flying feathers clipped a long time ago.  I can't honestly say that the money earned by a Forester is wasted.

[timberjackrob]

i no longer log fulltime but still take on small jobs near the house as i now have a public job but i always cut on a percentage basis usually  50/50 somtimes if the timber was really good i would give the landowner 60 percent or if it contained alot of lowgrade i would get 60 percent this way the landowner shares in the risk if the timber dosent cut well ie hidden holes in the logs or past fire damage or if the price drops after the deal is made this is a very common practice around here most everybody seems happy with it

[Ron Wenrich]

I've been on both sides of the forestry profession ... consultant and procurement.  I've worked for mills, loggers, and landowners.  From my personal aspect, the quality of management was the same, no matter who pays the bill.  The timber gets marked the same, the bid sheets are developed the same, and the base price is set the same.

Bidding can be a double edged sword.  If I'm working as a procurement forester, then the base price is what I think it is worth to the mill.  If I'm working for the landowner, than the base price is what I figure the timber is worth.  If the bidding comes in above that, then the bidding process has done the work, not necessarily the forester.  

I think that loggers should work the same way, and many do.  They develop their price, and they pay that amount, no matter if its a bid sale, or a landowner coming in off the street.  When reviewing bids, the guys with the low ball numbers were always the ones who weren't interested in buying the timber, just looking to see what the competition was bidding.  

I've seen good foresters do good work, and poor foresters really hose over landowners.  I know of one forester who made more money on sales than the landowner.  They would give the landowner one price, and then market the timber for the highest price.  Many foresters feed loggers and mills with unbid timber.  Then, they'll tell the landowner that they were the highest bidder.  Other foresters will underscale timber to make it look like they are getting a higher price than what loggers state the same timber was worth.  The guys buying the timber know who's doing it.  

So, where do the ethics come into play?    I kind of look at it this way.  Firstly, the forester or logger is the steward of the land.  You don't own the land, but the landowner is handing that responsibility over to you when you start putting the saw to the wood.  If you don't respect someone else's land, than you violate that responsibility.

Secondly is how you handle your finances.  Not only do they trust you with the stewardship of the land, they trust you in the stewardship of the marketing of the product.  They expect a reasonable return on their property.  If the landowner feels cheated, you can never get enough good publicity to overcome the bad.  But, that's a business decision.

Landowners should always get more than one opinion, no matter if its foresters or loggers.  Then decide on a good one.

[DonT]

Tom brought up the concept of ethics.When asked to define ethics I always say it is the way in which you act,work, and conduct business when no one else is around.That being said i also realize this is not a perfect world and not everyone feels the same way i do.

[Randy88]

There are a lot of sides to this I'll dwell on just one for now, first off if you were asked to bid and you did and they accepted the offer and your both grownups and legal adults then no you did nothing wrong provided you do your best to take care of the timber and leave the owner with an opinion of respecting you for how he was treated and how his timber was treated.   

Now that said there are a lot of factors that drive a sale and most nobody really knows but the guy selling and the guy buying, now neighbors can speculate all they want to but its really nobody else's business, now if the spectators feel there was something amiss then so be it but basically it ends there.    I've been involved in a lot of these things over the years, not with logging per say but I'm a contractor and do work for pay, I log on my own for private needs and enjoyment.   I have been involved in a lot of circumstances where the owner wanted me to bid on work, why? it all depends and those reasons drive the response of the owner if they are happy or not, now I've had a lot of problems over this for decades, I can do the job cheaper for the guy if we did it by the hour vs. bidding on it, I have to take into account any unexpected expenses weather they happen or not, so in reality the owner gets billed for things that can go wrong even if they don't.    I've explained this many times and every time they are willing to pay that and know it upfront even if it doesn't happen.   It has never made sense to me nor ever will but is it unethical to take what I bid it for and got the winning bid on even if it doesn't go wrong or cost me the added cost?    I had to take the risk, just like the owner and yes I take the extra money if things go right and it didn't cost me the added expense, it was in the deal upfront.   I'll never understand it but as its been put to me by owners dozens of times, thats what they want, to know exactly upfront what it'll cost with no hidden surprises so thats what we do.   I feel I've done nothing wrong when things go right or wrong, I've even ran this by my lenders and they all tell me its business and a business deal and nobody got took, on some jobs we just make more money on is all, and remember I got the low bid, others bid more, so in actually I made more money off a job that went good and at the same time I made less than any other bidder would have, so look at it how you like.   

I've even got jobs where I bid the highest price on not the lowest and the only answer I've ever gotten was, the owner told me he trusted me and not the others, I've gotten jobs where I was the only one to bid on it as well, either others didn't want to or others were not asked to bid, only me.   Should I feel special, no, I did what I was asked and its not really anybody else's opinion if I got the job or not, most times I have no idea until after I was the only one to bid and really is doesn't matter anyhow, all I'm concerned with is the fact I did what I said I would and did quality work and the owner is happy, who else really matters in the long run.   My opinion is and always has been the one that pays the bill gets what they want as long as its done in a business like manner and I did good quality work and I met their criteria in the end, now I have turned down a lot of work over the years where what is wanted won't work or isn't what I consider ethical or will end up being a poor quality job but thats just me.   I know the circumstances are a little different but the principles are the same.   If you got the job and do a good job and both sides are happy then you've done nothing wrong.    I've had people tell me over the years that I've gotten jobs that I was not the lowest priced but the highest priced and I was confused as to why I got the job and many times I've been told, its worth it to me[the owner] because I've never had problems with your work and I have with others.   In those circumstances should I have taken less and done the job for what others bid lower on?   Is it unethical to take the price I bid the job on even if its higher than others?   The answer is no, now the reason why is nobody would ever find out unless someone let it slip as to the fact how much everyone bid or someone was unhappy who didn't get the bid.  I've done nothing wrong or feel I've done nothing wrong even if I ended up doing the job for more, in the end its the owners decision and nobody else's.   

Everyone can hash over how much more someone would have made if a forester would have been involved or how much the forester would have taken and so on, but in the end its the owners decision and nobody else's or for that fact not their business either.    Its no different than trading machines and after the fact someone claims that so and so would have done a better deal, well its a little late in the process to complain or downgrade the deal or make judgement on someone else's decision or convince the owner he was wrong or made a poor choice, thats unethical in my opinion but thats a whole different discussion altogether.