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Author Topic: Back hoe dead, what to do?  (Read 8677 times)

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Offline flip

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Back hoe dead, what to do?
« on: March 08, 2006, 08:52:00 AM »
Grrrrrrr >:(  My '63 Allis Chalmers back hoe I think has gone down for the count.  We were using it to clean out a horse barn ring, all sawdust, and load a manure spreader.  Well the chain on the spreader broke so we were gonna finish out the last 3 bucket loads with the back hoe.  We got into the field were we were dumping and the DANg thing quit pulling.  Red fluid leak out of the bell housing very ominous sign of $$ out of the pocket. 

The tractor is old and I just had a set of forks made so I can move the biggins' around to the mill and move the lumber stacks.  I also use it to (shhhhh, skid with) move hay bales and such, but it is old and parts are starting to wear out.  If the trans. has to be pulled I was told to be looking at 3-4,000.  The tractor running is only worth 4-5,000 so do I cut my losses and look for one in the 10-15 range or fix this one and roll the dice?  If I send it to the shop I'm pretty much committed.  The leak is definitely from converter front seal area.  Logs on the ground and I'm helpless :( >:(

Suggestions??


Thanks----Flip
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Kirk_Allen

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2006, 09:06:03 AM »
Do the other controls work on the tractor?  UP/Down on the bucket and hoe?  If they do then I assume we can eliminate both the hydraulic pump and filters.  Leaving only more expensive parts to fix :(


Offline beenthere

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2006, 09:14:00 AM »
Sounds like the time to split it apart to learn what is wrong, and see if you can get parts. No description given of what preceded the "DanG thing quit pulling" ordeal (noises, clunks, jerking, stuck in mud, slipped a gear, dropped the clutch,  ??? ) but there is the possibility a fix would be possible with some time and hassle.
OneWithWood is an 'expert' at diving into these things, so he will have some better ideas. He hasn't had the best of luck with overhauling his and keeping it running for long, but he is getting a lot of experience.
In the meantime, looking for another tractor that is running for the $5k may help you out, or take the opportunity to move up to a newer model (use the horses as the excuse, after all they broke it  :) ).
south central Wisconsin
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Offline jpgreen

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2006, 10:21:59 AM »
Equipment..  ::)

Looks like a "self fixer" oportunity project to learn if you have the time, but to much to send to the shop.  Sounds like you prolly got your money's worth out of the beast though.

As bad as I need one I'd tear into it if it was me, eventhough I've never worked one.
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Offline Tom

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2006, 10:26:15 AM »
......or you could just use the horses.  They might not like being attached to a wagon, but it isn't exactly a cruel thing to do.

I lost an old Ford 5550 to symptoms like you describe.  It cost about 1000 to break it apart and replace seals, etc. in the transmission (kinda like a dyno-flow)

I didn't do it.  I had it done at the dealership.  It wasn't 6 months later that the engine siezed and I just replaced it with a smaller and later model.  I have a Ford 555A that I purchased from the dealer's rental stock.  It has done a good job for 20 years now and I'm glad I stepped up to the plate.
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Offline flip

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2006, 11:43:12 AM »
All of the hydraulics work fine.  We were cleaning out the barn due to the lack of horses (uncle getting out of business/retiring). 

We were in the process of driving 150 yards down a very small grade, dumped, turned around and then nuttin', no noise, no nuttin' except for the leak out of the inspection cover.

We drug the thing over to the machine room and looked it over.  I am/was a mechanic but this is way out of my territory.  If it don't burn gas I don't know nuttin' about it.

Must ponder some more on this one.

Thanks
Flip
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Offline Dale Hatfield

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2006, 12:32:20 PM »
I think the good news is that all other functions still work that means that the tranny,isnt the pump that runs them.

 Dont be scared of the tranny. Trouble shoot it to figger where the leak is comming from. It could be as simple as needing a new line. No fluid no move . Dont think the worse unless your working on something for me cause its usually is.
 Why is it when I call for a part price they say well we have 2 kinds this cheap one and the high dollar one that only fits a few models. Thats allways the one i need.
Check the yeller pages their is usally a heavy equipment/large truck tranny shop close by.
Ill bet if you check the net you will find planty of salvage parts places that will sell you a new one.
Dale

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Offline slowzuki

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2006, 12:46:08 PM »
I don't know the tranny type but it sounds like your torque convertor woofed its cookies.  How does the tranny on the machine work?  You have a reverser? Need to use the clutch when driving into piles with the loader?

Offline flip

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2006, 12:49:46 PM »
It has a clutch pedal, 4 gears and a shuttle lever that puts it in forward or reverse.  I looked all over the stinkin' thing and couldn't find a fill plug, I guess the floor plate has to come off. >:(

Like I don't have enough going on right now ::)

Flip
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Offline slowzuki

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2006, 12:54:57 PM »
Can you flop the reversor without clutching (when it is working normal) and can you run it into a pile without clutching?  A hoe with a torque convertor can be stopped in gear by a load without stalling.

Offline flip

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2006, 01:10:42 PM »
Yep. Can ram lift or whatever without clutching.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Offline beenthere

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2006, 01:21:35 PM »
In your bio says ""Work at family owned Ford dealer for almost 10 years as a service technician and now service advisor.""
Does this get you any access to the mechanics who could (would) look it over and give you some advice? 

Don't 'flip' out on this  - flip. It's the type of thing that makes everything more 'fun' (just ask several here who don't know when to quit or even if that is an option to consider  ;D ).  Keep feedin some info, and you may get out of this with just a little bit o grease on your elbows.  :)

What's the model number and serial number, and a pic or two would help.  Any manual handy to you? 
south central Wisconsin
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Offline flip

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2006, 01:56:26 PM »
I've tapped my normal sources here and got the usual, "I duno, I don't work on tractors". ::) 

A couple buddies just stopped by a few minutes ago and talked me into pulling the trans.  They looked at it last night and said just the front seal.  Knowing better I've agreed and will start pulling tonight >:(

I'll try to get pics, can't find camera...again. >:(
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Offline Tom

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2006, 01:58:29 PM »
Look in the refrigerator
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Offline flip

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2006, 02:04:09 PM »
 :D :D :D :D :D
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Offline raycon

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2006, 02:07:06 PM »
http://www.ytmag.com/

The have a pretty active Allis Chalmers forum
Lot of stuff..

Offline slowzuki

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2006, 03:49:44 PM »
I was gonna second the ytmag link, great resource for old iron.

It sounds like a sealed TC took a dump given the red fluid.  They can be rebuilt by good techs or replaced with new or rebuilt.  May just be the seal on it.  If the fluid drains out of it you are basically dead in the water.  It would act the same as the clutch being depressed.  Without a blow up of the guts its hard to troubleshoot any further.

Offline flip

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2006, 04:03:58 PM »
UPDATE>>>>

My co-hort filled the trans. up and it pulled itself, BUT.  Another guy under the tractor was looking through the inspection cover saw new fluid comming out around converter seal (God I hope the converter didn't puke).  So bench press the trans. we will tonight :(  if my voice is higher tomorrow or I don't type so well, well, you know why.

Flip
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Offline jpgreen

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2006, 05:18:56 PM »
What's a torque converter (ball park) cost for one of these machines?
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Offline ronwood

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2006, 05:33:41 PM »
flip.

Maybe the seal went bad and that is the only problem.

Ron
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Offline highpockets

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2006, 06:04:27 AM »
I bought a 555 Ford (1987) backhoe about three years ago. It was a bid deal and I think I was one of very few that knew it was for sale. I bid $3,500.00 as the guy that had run it told me the clutch was slipping.  I split it apart and found that the clutches had so little wear that I had to mic them against a new one to tell the difference.  I took the clutch pack to the ford dealer since I did not want to build a adapter to changew the seals.  The mechanic told me that one seal (forward) was missing. He thought I had disassembled it.  I contacted the first owner and asked him if they had ever split the machine. He said no.  It seems that the tractor came out of the factory with the seal missing.  Anyway, about $400.00 later I have a fairly good machine. 

If the thing is blown up, what can you hurt, tear it apart and see.  I'll bet it is simplier than you think.   
Louisiana Country boy
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Offline isassi

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2006, 08:25:44 AM »
If you filled it up with fluid and it pulled itself, you have nothing to fear but a seal kit. Now getting the seal kit may be fun, but oh well...one thing to be said for running a Case backhoe..parts can be had if you have the bucks to have them  ;D If it quits pulling and the last sounds you hear are grinding noises, then its bad all the way...and parts like that from salvage yards need to be carefully inspected because TC failure is the number one killer on older backhoes. I don't know how AC or Agripro will treat you on parts, a dealer re-build from Case  on  TC can eat the value of a 580 backhoe pretty quick...

Offline flip

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2006, 08:32:16 AM »
Well, we pulled the transmission, something I suggest everyone do once, and found the converter hub seal out of its bore.  Yippie I guess.  I think since it's apart I'll send the converter out to get checked.  No one got hurt but there is hydro, trans. and gear oil EVERYWHERE not to mention 40 years of crud and muck.

Thanks all for the advice,
Flip
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Offline Lud

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2006, 09:26:22 AM »
A lesson for us all.  I can almost feel the oil 'n grit  under the fingernails.  (I'm partial to Fels Naptha for that).   Thanks   8)
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Offline flip

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2006, 01:28:01 PM »
Just got converter back from Jasper Engines, all check out fine.  Clearance checked out at new spec. and air pressure tested good.  I feel a little better about things now.  When I get my seal tomorrow I plan to "stake" it since it doesn't have a lip around the edge and make sure my vent is good.
We worked on it until 1am last night and am dragging tail today :( 
Get to bed at 2, roosters crow at 5 and I had to be at work at 6:30.  My head should be firmly planted on my desk here shortly in a pile of drool.

Flip

As far as hand cleaner we have some stuff at work here (Zep Cherry Bomb)that is great but in a pinch I use brake parts cleaner.  If you have a cut though prepare to see stars.
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Offline logwalker

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2006, 01:13:42 AM »
I've been using starting fluid, ether. It works great and I figure medical science has been using it for a 150 years with no health warning yet. And it really, really, works.  LW
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Offline highpockets

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2006, 05:35:03 AM »
See, it ain't so bad.  Just jump off in it.  Success lies where the fearful dare not tread!

We use casinghead when we can get it.   It is the high ends of natural gas production.  Man, it will light up if you aren't carefull.  My grandmother said poor folks had poor ways.  I guess so.

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Offline sawguy21

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2006, 08:52:27 AM »
ATF works like a darn too. There should be lots of that around after the tranny job. ;D
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Offline ScottAR

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2006, 01:45:38 PM »
Joe's handcleaner is the best I've used...  Smells like bubble gum...  Permatex makes some good stuff too for takin' off paint and autobody stuff. 

Laquer thinner works in a pinch...  don't get cut or it really hurts...  Don't get it under your watch either... 
Scott
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Offline Coon

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2006, 12:01:18 AM »
The best hand cleaner I have found in these parts is good ol' laquer thinner but I have also used a product called LAVA made by WD40.  It works pretty DanG good too but is rather hard to find and when you do it is only a small pump bottle of it.  Have never seen any larger sizes of it.

Glad to hear that you found your probs with the hoe.  With any luck that seal and a lil more of your time and trans fluid you'll be up and hoein' around. :D
Brad.
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Offline Dana

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2006, 06:41:41 AM »
Just a suggestion on laqquer thinner, don't use it! Laqquer thinner has a Material Data Sheet that is two and a half pages, that lists the names of the chemicals contained in it. It goes by an innocent name, but is anything but. ;)
Grass-fed beef farmer, part time sawyer

Offline sawguy21

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2006, 09:03:53 AM »
I soak parts in it but not the paws. It dries skin very quickly.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline jpgreen

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2006, 01:07:00 PM »
My favorite hand cleaner is plain old GoJo with no pumice.  Makes a good laundry pre-treat too.. smiley_beertoast
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Offline Coon

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2006, 01:00:37 PM »
One can not always help getting your hands into laquer thinner......  especially in the autobody trade whe you go to clean paint guns and such.  I know that it should be used very carefully but can't always be so easily done.  Just think when I first started in autobody I used to use rubber gloves when cleaning putty boards and paint guns etc.  I used them twice as a matter of fact and quit the use when the thinner simply melted the rubber gloves right on into my skin.  Since then, I have just been wise at ways to clean the equipment, and fortunately I am out of the autobody and mechanical trades except for my own personal uses.  I don't often use laquer thinner any more.
Brad.
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Offline submarinesailor

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2006, 08:20:10 PM »
I remember years ago when we painted submarines with polyamide epoxy based paint.  The standard rule was to take diesel fuel and greenies, Scott Brite pads, and scrub until you were clean.  Many times while crawling around the missile deck superstructure, we would become covered in paint.  NOTE:  Cleaning it of your bottom and other sensitive parts was not fun.  But, years later I was working as a beltway bandit and the task was to write a tech manual on inspection and painting of the submarine superstructure boy did I learn what not to do.

The main point of all this, is for you to remember that as you use solvents to clean paint and other products off your skin.  Not only are you adsorbing the solvent thru your skin, but you are thinning the paint and you are adsorbing it also.  Polyamide is NASTY stuff!!!!!!!!  I only use hand cleaners to clean with now.  I dont care how long it may take.

Offline thurlow

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2006, 08:37:57 PM »
A good quality NEW/UNUSED high detergent engine oil will remove almost anything from your hands.  Any good hand cleaner will then remove the oil...............
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Offline Nova

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2006, 04:58:38 AM »
I'm with submarinesailor on this one.  Solvents, in addition to lifting the oil based product from your skin, will pull the protective oil from your skin - hence the dry skin.  Worse however, is the solvent being absorbed thru the skin and into the blood stream because many solvents can act as carriers for some chemicals.  At the microscopic level cells are designed to allow certain chemicals in and to keep others out.  Solvents can cut thru the cell walls like a hot knife thru butter and pull nasty things in with them which can damage your DNA (this is one way cancer starts) amongst other things.  People who work with solvents, without taking proper precautions, are increasing their risk of a number of illnesses, both acute and chronic.  Of the latter, liver, kidney and brain cancer are just a few as well as leukemia.

Logwalker, be careful with ether, it is extremly flammable and it is toxic if used in an enclosed space.

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Offline Dana

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2006, 06:37:53 AM »
Coon, they make Nitrille Gloves and respirators for a reason.  ;) The gloves and respirators are cheap, when compared to a doctor. (gloves -$15.00 a box of 50, respirators - $18.00) :)
Grass-fed beef farmer, part time sawyer

Offline highpockets

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2006, 10:10:55 AM »
Flip, it seems we got off on hand cleaners and I wasn't sure if you got the tractor running. 
Louisiana Country boy
homemade mill, 20 h.p. Honda & 4 h.p. for hydraulics.  8 hydraulic circuits, loads, clamps, rotates, etc.

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2006, 08:28:33 AM »
Yep.  All running fine now.  Just have to get everything pressure washed and get a coat of paint on (since we're going to all the trouble anyway).  Runs great, thanks for asking.

Flip
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2006, 07:53:49 AM »
Glad everything worked out.


Someone on here said   "Success lies where the fearful dare not tread! "   I love it.l

You can eat an elephant if you'll do it one bite at a time. 
Louisiana Country boy
homemade mill, 20 h.p. Honda & 4 h.p. for hydraulics.  8 hydraulic circuits, loads, clamps, rotates, etc.

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2006, 09:57:45 AM »
Glad to hear you are back hoein' around :D :D :D

Dana   I always used a respirator when working in the autobody shop.  It made no sense to me to be wasting my brain away by not doing so.  Gloves however at times are not easy to work with, especially if they do not fit right.  The best cure for the solvents is to get out of that environment.  Hence why I got out of autobody and got the sawdust makin' back in my blood. 

Brad.
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

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Re: Back hoe dead, what to do?
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2006, 09:47:05 PM »
good trick i learned from my dad for removing grease etc... from the skin b4 you start work  coat your hands with  manual dish washing soap when you are through working the crud just washes off the soap fill the pores and keeps the grease out :P :P
james


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