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Deutz Diesel Issue

Started by Corley5, January 13, 2012, 10:45:03 PM

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Corley5

The 4 cyl Deutz in my C4 forwarder started smoking a few days ago.  The smoke is blue/white to black and smells of raw fuel.  It's not using or gaining oil in the crankcase.  It is low on power and misses now and then but not constantly.  Engine oil pressure is a constant 75lbs.  Running the loader with the throttle set it runs fine, no smoke, no miss.  It idles fine and starts good as it always has.  The problem manifests itself when the machine is moving with the engine load changing.  It almost seems like it's loading up on fuel  ???  I changed the fuel filters a few weeks ago before the problem started and always run clean fuel.  My transfer tank has a filter on it and I use Sea Foam on a regular basis.  Air filter is fine too.  I'm thinking it may be a bad injector  ???  Hopefully not the injector pump.  Any ideas  ???
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Jeff

I was going to say pump. :-\
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Corley5

I really hope it's not the pump  :) 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

mad murdock

Sounds like a fuel issue fer sure. Got a laser temp gun thingy? Check the exhaust manifold on all 4 and see of you got a cold  cyl. Start there. Hope you get it figgered.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

Gary_C

Does sound like the pump. Could be the governor in the pump is malfunctioning. What kind of injection pump does it have?
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

isawlogs

  I would put a quart of transmission fluid in the fuel tank and run it through.  Sounds like the pump to me too.   :-\
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Corley5

  I do have one of those laser temp things  ;D  Dee got it for me for Christmas  8) 8)  I'll try that and see what comes up.  I'll have to look and see what brand the pump is.  I haven't paid any attention, haven't had to  :-\ :)  but I would bet that it's a Bosch.
  It's 2.8 degrees right now.  I'm gonna wait for it to warm up a bit before venturing out.  I'm glad I haven't sold the old C-5 cable machine.  Looks like it's gonna see some service  :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

kiko

A blown fire ring will cause the blue smoke. A blown fire ring will often sound like an exhaust leak and create low compression on that cly resulting in the smoke.   

LaserZX

trans fluid is fine but you would be better to put in a quart of 2 cycle oil in the fuel instead both are fine

Quote from: isawlogs on January 13, 2012, 11:57:37 PM
  I would put a quart of transmission fluid in the fuel tank and run it through.  Sounds like the pump to me too.   :-\

Corley5

What will the addition of mix or tranny fluid do  ??? :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Gary_C

Quote from: Corley5 on January 14, 2012, 10:43:46 AM
What will the addition of mix or tranny fluid do  ??? :)

Provide some lubrication to the injection system parts, todays diesel fuel is considered very dry. The addition of biodiesel will also help, but not in this cold weather as it must be heated to disperse through the fuel.

From what little I know about Duetz engines, it looks like they have a direct injection pump with a mechanical governor included. I suspect the governor is sticking and that is a somewhat common problem in some injection pumps.

Check out this web site for parts. http://deutzpartsdirect.com/ 

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SPIKER


[/quote]
Quote from: Corley5 on January 14, 2012, 10:43:46 AM
What will the addition of mix or tranny fluid do  ??? :)

Quote from: Gary_C on January 14, 2012, 01:39:26 PM
Quote from: Corley5 on January 14, 2012, 10:43:46 AM
What will the addition of mix or tranny fluid do  ??? :)

Provide some lubrication to the injection system parts, todays diesel fuel is considered very dry. The addition of biodiesel will also help, but not in this cold weather as it must be heated to disperse through the fuel.

From what little I know about Duetz engines, it looks like they have a direct injection pump with a mechanical governor included. I suspect the governor is sticking and that is a somewhat common problem in some injection pumps.

Check out this web site for parts. http://deutzpartsdirect.com/ 

beat me to it...   yes will help lube up all of the injection system also free & remove deposits in the pup system.   seem to think about it about time for a little in my tractor ;)
Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Side loader

  I would put a quart of transmission fluid in the fuel tank and run it through
My A-1 mechanic partner says dextron 2 or equilivant.  That or better.  A dutez is a tough motor.
Side loader log truck w/492 Detroit, bell super T feller buncher, Barko 160 with JD power, Kubota M4900 with brush raker grapple on front and shop built bunching grapple on back. JD 350B Dozer; JD 548D skidder;  and a couple of saws.

treefarmer87

i have never heard of that ??? does it help? makes sense though
1994 Ford L9000
2004 Tigercat 718
1998 Barko 225
1999 John Deere 748G
FEC 1550 slasher
CTR 314 Delimber
Sthil 461
Sthil 250

OntarioAl

Corley5
Diesel engines built before the days of ultra low sulfur fuel used the fuel to keep the injection pump and injectors lubricated.
The new fuel does not provide the lubrication necessary so you must regularly supplement your fuel with a lubricant, apparently the process that removes the sulfur "drys" out the fuel.
When I was running several "Detroits"  (6V92,453,353,253) the local Detroit Dealer's shop foreman told me to dump a quart  of  auto transmission fluid in my tanks once a month told me it cleans and lubricates the injectors. This was when the fuel still had lubrication qualities. I now add about 1 quart of auto transmission fluid to 20 (Can Gallons) for my 353 Detroit, and 91 Jetta turbo diesel
Hope this helps
Al
Al Raman

snowstorm

Quote from: Corley5 on January 13, 2012, 10:45:03 PM
The 4 cyl Deutz in my C4 forwarder started smoking a few days ago.  The smoke is blue/white to black and smells of raw fuel.  It's not using or gaining oil in the crankcase.  It is low on power and misses now and then but not constantly.  Engine oil pressure is a constant 75lbs.  Running the loader with the throttle set it runs fine, no smoke, no miss.  It idles fine and starts good as it always has.  The problem manifests itself when the machine is moving with the engine load changing.  It almost seems like it's loading up on fuel  ???  I changed the fuel filters a few weeks ago before the problem started and always run clean fuel.  My transfer tank has a filter on it and I use Sea Foam on a regular basis.  Air filter is fine too.  I'm thinking it may be a bad injector  ???  Hopefully not the injector pump.  Any ideas  ???
white or gray smoke is incomplete combustion often times low compression broken rings fire ring. also an injector over fueling can wash the cylinders down  no oil flim on the rings not as much compression. you could pull the injectors and have them tested for spray  and drip. with your finger on an injection line you can feel the fuel pulse. look at exhaust manifold is it wet around any one cylinder? start it check exhaust temp at each cyl.if one is cold there is a reason for it. if you think its a bad injector you can pull it reconect the line turn the motor over with the fuel stop pulled so it wont start watch the spray paten if it squirts or drips  it shouldnt

lumberjack48

Scored injectors from this water downed dry fuel, fuel is to clean now, you older guys remember what NB 2 diesel looked like and smelt like, it was nasty stuff.
20 yrs ago i added oil to the fuel in my Detroit, i like to see a Little smoke out of the pipe.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Corley5

  I moved the machine back to a job with a barn yesterday  ;) :) and paid more attention to what it does.  Standing still I can throttle almost all the way up before it starts to miss and smoke.  Otherwise it seems to run fine.  When the machine is moving anytime it calls for more fuel it belches smoke.  I checked the temps on the exhaust manifold and number three is about 20 degrees colder than one and two which are close and #4 is hotter than one and two by about twenty degrees.  No signs of wetness at #3 to indicate raw fuel.
  I dumped a quart of ATF in the fuel this morning and ran it loading the firewood processor for about three hours and plan to run it more  tomorrow to see if it makes any difference.  If not I'll pull it in the barn and start with the injectors  :)  I can't imagine raw fuel washing down the cylinder walls and rings is doing it any good  :) 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

saltydog

I would think injecters.deutz have a return line to put extra fuel back in the tank. when i rebuilt mine(in the woods)i missed hooking it back up actually didnt run bad just extra smoke.i sure would try injecters before a pump.cheaper and easy.i miss my deutz over 20,000 hrs before first rebuild. awsome engines.
Proud to be a self employed logger.just me my Treefarmer forwader Ford f600 truck 2186 Jonsereds 385 and 390 husky and several 372s a couple 2171s one 2156  one stihl 066  Hudson bandmill Farquhar 56"cat powered mill.and five kids one wife.

UN Hooker

  I would start by checking the fuel line for a air leak between the tank and lift pump, especially the rubber one over the center pin. If that's OK, then check the pressure going into the injection pump under load. If its low, your lift pump may be going bad.
         UN
Retired Toolmaker/Moldmaker
C-4 & C5D TF - 5500 Iron Mule - Restored 4400 Ford Ind. FEL ex Backhoe w/custom built boom w/Valby 360* grapple w/18' reach - 920 Cat w/bucket & forks w/clamp - Peterson 10" WPF - LT-15 - Cooks Catsclaw & Dual tooth setter - many Husky saws

OntarioAl

Corley5
Deutz are great engines I pearsonally have limmited experience with them but I  did a goggle search and this web site may be of some help.
http://www.filestube.com/d/deutz+engine+manuals
I hope this helps
Al
Al Raman

Corley5

  I pulled the injectors this afternoon and took them in to have them cleaned and patterned/tested.  They all had some carbon buildup and #3 seemed a bit damp.  I might have them back by the end of week but more likely the 1st part of next week.
  I did check for leaks in the fuel and didn't find any visible so I sprayed them with ether with the engine running.  No change in the way the engine ran  ;D :)  I think I'm good there.  Hopefully just having the injectors serviced fixes the problem.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Doppelganger

You might want to give a compression test and check the tappet settings if there is nothing seriously wrong with the injector.  Tight tappets will give a miss at higher PRM's.

Check cylinder studs are tighten to the correct preasure.

Corley5

I want to check the compression before I put the injectors back in if I can find an adapter.  I've got a Sun tester and adapter for a range of engines but Deutz isn't one of them.  I should have compared the injectors to my adapter before I sent them out  :-\ ::)  There's a chance it'll work but I don't want to wait for the injectors to come back and then find out it won't :)  I called Sun but they only list one for Deutz engines with glow plugs and their diesel expert just retired so they couldn't tell me if mine will work ::) :)  The Deutz adapter they show threads into the glow plug hole and my engine doesn't have glow plugs. 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

kiko

If you can come up with an old injector you can take it apart and gut it then weld or braze a fitting on that fits your compression guage. If you can't find an injector to make a compression adaptor you can reinstall the injectors. If the smoke remains you can break the injector lines off one at a time ( with it running  and secured so the machine does not try to move around) untill you find which one clears the smoke off. At this point you know which cly it is and you will likely find the fire ring to be cracked resulting in the low compression. As you break the injection lines off the fuel should "bounce" up 6 to 8 inches, if the fuel just runs out around the nut you could have fuel pump issues( unlikely though as a fuel pump issue seldom causes the white blue smoke you speak of). I have seen this issue many times on a duetz. Because it is air cooled it is has a fire ring rather than a head gasket. Is this engine a FL912? As much as you said you have run it with it smoking a piston/ring problem would likely have  already developed into a piston slap. Also, a broken fire ring will sometimes sound like an exhaust leak.

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