Can't make a living with one of those "small" mills

[TGS]

Get out the applications fellas, according to my critic you can't make a living with B20 sized mills. Apparently you need a circle mill or a second job. Dang, just when I got my hopes up...

[Ron Wenrich]

Depends.  I know guys that couldn't make a living with a circle mill. 

What niche are you trying to fulfill?  If you're going to compete for logs and marketshare with circle mills, you will be hard pressed to beat their prices because production costs are generally too high on small bandmills.  If you're going to address markets circle mills don't, then you can.  Custom sawing, on site sawing, and localized niche markets can be good ones and guys on this board have been successful.  What's your business plan?

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Did you hear about the saw miller that won the lottery?  When asked what he would do with the million dollars, he replied "Keep sawing until the money runs out."

You can saw all day, but you make no profit until it is sold.

Sawmill profit = income from lumber when sold - cost of log - production cost

Log costs are 75% and production is 25%.

To make a profit, the lumber needs to be as valuable as possible which means that it is the right species and size and other quality factors, that you can deliver the lumber immediately and that someone must want it.  So, you cannot make a profit sawing limbs that will warp when dried; you cannot sell no. 2 Common, 8/4 poplar at a profit; etc.

I saw a mill making great profit that made stock for pool cues.  I saw another that sawed clear wood from slabs (the round, first cut piece for the log) and other waste from a large sawmill, etc.

[Cedarman]

You must become as proficient in sales and marketing as you are in sawing.  If you do not like this aspect of the business, I suggest teaming up with someone who is.
You can learn to run a sawmill in one day.  You will still be learning to run a sawmill business for years.  There is a tremendous amount to learn in running a business.  This is one of the reasons this forum has so many people studying it.  It has a wealth of information.  It is a good start.

[Mooney]

If you're wanting to look over some business models that are working, feel free to email/PM me your address and I'll send you some examples, including a booklet Mr. Wengert helped us put together. jmooney@woodmizer.com.

At this stage, knowing where you are and aren't going is very important, and getting to look at real success stories can help you mold your business plan.

[Bibbyman]

After 18 years - 7 of those full time, only income - the verdict is still out. 

I made a delivery yesterday to one of our commercial customers to get ambushed by two older guys asking if I'd saw their logs.  Both were some distance from our mill - one nearly 90 miles away.   I told them we were swamped and mentioned mills closer to them. Both agreed but didn't want to deal with the other mills.

They told about how much sawing they had done from time to time. I suggested that they buy their own mill.  Both rejected that idea because the work was too hard.

I always answer the "can you make a living" question with ; "How well do you need to live? "

[thecfarm]

Who says,"can't" There are some on here that are doing pretty good "not making a living with a small mill"

[paul case]

I bought one of those ''small'' mills in '08 to build my house with. Matter of fact mine was all manual. I built my house and immediately had people bringing me logs to saw for them. A friend of mine got into milling about the same time. He does custom and makes pallet boxes and saws out parts for heavy skids. He couldn't keep up with all of it and ask me to start cutting some skid parts about a year and a half ago. 6 months ago he started to building the heavy skid and has bought all the parts for it from me ever since.
After the log cost, it pays as much as I would charge to custom saw. It is a good deal for both of us. Just sawing his standing weekly order pays me about $600/week and takes about 3 days to saw.
I think it is better to pay cash for a mill instead of borrow to buy it but either way you can make a go of it. Just go in with your eyes wide open. 
There are opportunities in my area to saw for bigger companies. 2outfits that buy walnut hire out some of their sawing and they usually pay about what I would charge to saw. I hear that they will only send you junky logs so it is hard to get good production, but it would be a good way to get your feet wet.
How good of a living is up to you and what kind of demand you can find for your mills services.
PC

[Magicman]

To make money with a sawmill requires you to sell something.  That means that a market has to be developed, whether it is selling lumber or simply selling a sawing service.  Many times it is a combination of the two, which means two different markets.  Similar, but still different.  Someone has to see value in your product and buy it.

The term niche is often heard/used when describing sawing businesses.  Look at the many different members here on the Forestry Forum, and you will see that many similar but still different businesses.  I do not know of any two that provide the exact same service or product.  They all have simply evolved into a niche market that suits them plus is taking advantage of a market that was available.

Just buying a sawmill and saying "here I am" won't work.  I often hear folks say " I have a woodlot so I will saw and sell lumber".  Not so fast and not so easy.  A "selling" market still has to be developed.

[DR Buck]

Did you hear about the saw miller that won the lottery?  When asked what he would do with the million dollars, he replied "Keep sawing until the money runs out."

You can saw all day, but you make no profit until it is sold.

Sawmill profit = income from lumber when sold - cost of log - production cost

Log costs are 75% and production is 25%.

To make a profit, the lumber needs to be as valuable as possible which means that it is the right species and size and other quality factors, that you can deliver the lumber immediately and that someone must want it.  So, you cannot make a profit sawing limbs that will warp when dried; you cannot sell no. 2 Common, 8/4 poplar at a profit; etc.

I saw a mill making great profit that made stock for pool cues.  I saw another that sawed clear wood from slabs (the round, first cut piece for the log) and other waste from a large sawmill, etc.

This is only true if your business plan is to sell lumber.  There are quite a few of us that sell a service.

    Sawmill profit = income from service - production cost -travel cost (only if portable)

I have no doubt that if I chose to go full time in my geographic area I could make a pretty good living with my mill.   Just ask the guys around here that I refer to for all the jobs I turn down.   I choose not to mill full time, but use it as supplemental income and 'fun' money.  My mill has paid for itself, the kiln, log trailer w/loader, skid steer and a boat load of Logrite stuff.  I've also been able to add a substantial number of toys to my personal collection with sawmill profit.

That said, the profit margin from my DH kiln is far higher than my sawmill margin, and the kiln has been running almost to capacity for the last 2 years.

Another benefit of "not making a living" with my small sawmill is my home heating cost have gone from $700 month to almost nothing by burning 'customer' slab waste from milling here at home.

BTW -  I do sell some lumber.  However, I do not buy logs.  In the urban environment where I live I can get almost all the logs I want for the cost of picking them up.

[drobertson]

Bibby bout hit the nail square on the head " how well do you want to live"  TGS, I read your post and had to ponder it for a bit,  I know nothing about the mill you mentioned, but believe after reading many post from all the folks with the smaller manual mills to the bigger hydraulic ones, and from my expeirence as well, you can do it.  Not sure where you live, but it does take allot of work, material handling, which as mentioned, sales.
there will be days that all goes well, real well, and days of allot of head scratching and cleaning the waste.

[schakey]

When you listen to the " you can't" then you never will.
A friend of mine made a living cutting ties and portable jobs for farmers.
He also sold produce at the local farmers market. A person can always take on
Odd jobs to supplement his income,as been said what do you need to get by on.
Good luck and enjoy.

[Solomon]

It seems to me that those simple jobs like cutting ties or pallet lumber can be pretty lucrative.

[saxon0364]

I tried it and I failed, big time.   But,,,,I didn't fail because I didn't have enough sawing work.  And I had plenty of logs.   I failed because I was trying to buy stumpage, keep a horse crew in timber producing with steady work, sawing customer lumber, hemlock mostly for guys building barns and what not, and logging with my skidder for a large company.    Never took a day off, worked 12 hours a day, was on the phone every night returning calls for another two hours.     Chasing my own tail night and day and barely breaking even.   
Loved every minute of it.  :D   . 
But, I was to deeply in dept, and it took to long for the money to turn around from stumpage to paid for lumber.   I lost my butt.    If I had it to do over again I would do it differently. I would concentrate on just the mill and buying logs.  You just cant do it all yourself.   I worked with some good guys. They busted their rears all week to, but it just didn't pan out for me.   All I have left is an old paid for pick up, my saws, helmet and chaps, my log splitter and a good work ethic.  Thats all I need to make a living and get by.
   After all that, I say, try it.   You only go around once so if thats what you want to do, give it a shot. Try not to make my mistake and go to deep into dept.   Buy used equipment, be prepared for breakdowns, line up your trucking and find a market for your lumber before you jump in.     Then, what the heck, go for it. Its only money.     Good luck to you.

[shelbycharger400]

getting by, thats what I do.
Built my mill, all my saws are old and used, beat up old truck.
I make a little, pays for playing.
I save by using all my waste solid wood to heat with.  what money I do get in, pays for maintence items, fuel ect.
Now, even tho its a "hobby mill" slabber, if I took a turn, did the website route ect I could make a sizeable profit.. key word could.
People buying are buying something they cant get anywhere else. I have people comming from 1 to 1 1/2 hr away.  Their is lots of mills even I know of in the route of travel.

[NWP]

So it sounds like it would be possible to saw pallet lumber as a side to a firewood/mulch business and make some extra money?  Also could do some custom stuff.  I've toyed with the idea, but I have no experience in the area of milling.  I've read a lot on here but I'm sure there is no substitute for the real thing.  Could a person "teach" themselves by cutting pallet lumber?  I figure there is a little more room for error on that rather than grade lumber.

[Bibbyman]

I'd starve to death sawing RR ties.  Not for lack of market or ability to produce but for lack of the right logs to make them.  It is apparently beyond our logger's grasp to understand what makes a tie log and what doesn't.

[Al_Smith]

I know very little about the sawmill busines and am only interested in my own stuff so it will never be big time nor will I toss much money at it .

In addition to my own stuff and due to the fact I often do service work for two tree service companies the logs will cost me absolutely nothing .I'm not talking about urban yard trees full of nails either .

What few around here who have portable mills are only in it for a part time thing ,their own stuff plus some pocket change and on that they do fine .

If you want to get an interesting idea of a "niche market " try Googling gun stock blanks sometime .

[SwampDonkey]

In these parts there are a few portable mills, but most sit idle for months. I know quite few that were bought because they had the money and it seemed like a good hobby novelty. A couple I know tried to compete with larger softwood mills and that was a quick failure. Absolutely no one advertizes or lists a phone number that I've ever seen. One fellow I cruised a woodlot for had a son with the "want". Deer old dad was left on the hook for an idle sawmill with payments with a for sale sign out by the road. So I see an awfully lot of "not making a living at it" in these parts. ;)

[Al_Smith]

I think in my mind the advent of portable bandsaws are in themselves a sort of "Niche "thing .Perhaps in certain areas with huge amounts of fir or pine available  custom sawn lumber could used for building .However not for house framing  because of building codes but quite possibley for barns ,out buildings etc .

In the hardwood areas it just provides the land owner to salvage what other wise would be fire wood .Quite honestly to sell off hardwoods locally you will do better selling it as firewood and with a lot less damage to the stand .Not picking on loggers just stating the facts .
Most of the local stuff is merely cut up for use as interior trim ,cabinetry things etc .Most people who have amassed some much like myself probabley have more than they could use in their lifetime .

I have a friend at work,mechanical engineer as a matter of fact who is building a timber framed out building one exception to the norm .His trees ,he is milling them and he is erecting the structure .If nothing else a feeling of accomplishment
So the portable bandsaw is just a nice option if nothing else .

[SwampDonkey]

Not even much barn building here. Most local farmers liquidated the woods to clear land and to build potato storage. In all my years of thinning I could count on one hand the number of farmers around here with a real closeness for the woods. The guys that will run you all over the farm to find you some thinning. The rest are either disconnected or too busy farming to be in the woods. A lot of cattle shelters now for feed lots and dairy are pretty much all steel. No one actually building new barns of wood like my grandfather's generation. Dad did cut and hire the milling of some of our own lumber for a couple of potato sheds. We did the building ourselves. But that is not common place around here. There is only one barn on this entire road, and it's never had anything done to it in decades. The south end of the place is all rotten and was rotten when I was a kid. I wouldn't put an animal in it. There are some miniature barns around, I would call them, for a pet horse or two. A lot of them canvas barns over steel poles for horses now adays.

[ATLGA]

It seems to me that those simple jobs like cutting ties or pallet lumber can be pretty lucrative.

Solomon, I would have to say this is not the case. Search for threads related to pallet and RR tie production. The consensus seems to be this is a slow road to the poor house unless you have all your ducks in a row and even then its still very difficult.