Pulp Prices

[fishpharmer]

Didn't mean to double post. 

I trust my logger buddy about prices, he says they can't find anything to cut right now.  Shouldn't he be able to give me an idea of how much my timber is worth before cutting?  Do I need to hire a professional forestor to make sure I'm getting the most value?

I am learning alot from this post.  Hope my reply helps.  I just have trouble wrapping my mind around what a ton of pulpwood is in terms of numbers of trees.   I know it depends on alot of variables.    On one property, I have alot of different species like cherry, poplar and oaks  that  I am thinking will have alot more value down the road if left alone until they become sawlogs.

Another property (swampland) with the most hardwood pulp (to me), is just about under water right now from all the rain.  And my definition  of hardwood pulp is loose and uneducated (I have mostly sweetgum less than 12 dbh). I think I would like to clearcut it and plant it back in cypress, swamp chestnut oak and water oak (mainly for wildlife).  Ducks , deer and turkey in that order.

This should probably be in another post but I was thinking leave all the oaks already there (swampland), cut the sweetgum and plant the rest in cypress.  The oaks are really drawing the wildlife presently (hate to mess that up).

Hope I am not high jacking post.

jdphish

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Pulp down here runns at around $2 to $5 bucks a ton stumpage ive heard of blocks being cut and only the sawlog being paid for  ;) When ive done blocks that ive sighed up for my own supply of which ive still got around 300 acres allup of 30 to45 yo radiata pine still to go with an avv dbh of about 20"  ;D i pay a flat $10 to $15 per ton for my sawlog  (in the good blocks  ;)) and just push the top grade pulp into low grade sawlog as to put it on a truck and cart it the 80 miles to geelong for export pulp just dosent pay   ;) I head of at a 7"to8" min dia  ;D

fishpharmer looking at say a 10" dbh with a min top of 4" 40'tall  for pulp would have just shy of around 1/4 to ea so 4 to 5 trees will = i ton  down here in fresh radiata pine  ;) wood weight varys accross the board so your no of trees per ton will be probley be different  ;) ;D and like they say no two trees are the same  ;) :D ;D

Reguards Chris

[SwampDonkey]

That's not an easy proposition for anyone. First you have to find your volume, density and basal area by species per stand type and site and work on averages. In particular, the cruise finds volumes of a tree of any particular "diameter class" and species on your site, based on averages obtained from growth and yield studies. What about pulp volume in limb wood? One tree could have 2 major limbs up there and another might have 4. What is the minimum top diameter of the pulp sticks in your local market?

The Wood Handbook gives you lb/cuft of solid wood (green), so you can figure # trees based on that. It's ball park only. 

Each state or maybe region has it's own set of tree volume equations and/or taper classes. Height and taper changes with climate and soil and most tree volume calculations are based on breast height diameters. If your just talking log bolts and calculating lumber yield, it's based on top diameter inside the bark and log length as you know, so taper isn't an issue. Depending on defect and height to live limbs, one tree of said diameter could yield more merchantable board footage than another. Basing tonnage on number of trees leaves you wide open to scrutiny if you ever try to hold a logger to task if issues should arise.

[thompsontimber]

"Shouldn't he be able to give me an idea of how much my timber is worth before cutting?  Do I need to hire a professional forestor to make sure I'm getting the most value?"--fishpharmer.

Does your logging buddy typically buy his own stumpage?  If he cuts regurlarly for a procurement forester he can probably get that forester to conduct a timber cruise for you.  He may be able to cruise your timber himself, but in all likely hood he assesses values by "counting loads" as he walks through or some other non-scientific, unorganized, and inaccurate method.  But to answer your question, yes, he should be able to give you some idea, at the least a "ballpark" figure as to what your timber is worth rather than having to wait to after the timber is gone to find out if it was really worth it to you.  In order for that to happen, you have to set specific parameters for the harvest--you and he need to have a firm understanding of what will be cut and what will be left before hand.  Paint trees, define by species or location, whatever makes sense in your situation.  As to whether or not you should hire a forester, it depends on a few factors and what's important to you.  Based on your posts and the fact that you are on this forum, it shows me that you have a real interest in being involved and knowledgable about the things going on in your timber stands.  If you are willing to be involved, to take time and oversee the operation, there is no need to hire a forester to attain a good return. Consultants often push their services based on increased income to the landowner, and that certainly can be a result depending on who you would have marketed your timber to.  However, the real advantage to hiring a forester is sound forest management, and if you have some basic forest management knowledge, an interest in appropriate forest management, and utilize your access to state forestry agencies, you can attain that free of charge.  Most of my consultant friends (good guys, don't get me wrong) charge a 10% commission on the stumpage coming to you.  They need to make a living too, and they sure have their place in this business.  But for an involved landowner, I don't think you need him.  They will often quote you evidence of their great benefits, like evidence that they can attain an average of 28% higher stumpage than you would have attained on your own (far covering their 10% fee). But reality is that the timber is worth what it is worth, and if you have 5-10 firms make you offers on it, I'll bet you will find a 30% difference between the high and low bidder, especially if you contact the fly by night silver tongued logger up the road.  The high bidder is gonna bid the same thing whether you contact him or the consultant does.  Same for the low bidder. 
So, in conclusion, my advice would be, if you do not hire a forester, to have several other reputable firms in your area make you offers.  You might wish to sell it on a lump sum basis rather than on the units, especially since the units are creating confusion for you.  But at the least they should all be giving you approximate figures so you aren't selling blind. And if you do hire a forester, sell it lump sum! He needs to at least earn his money, and no one gets cheated on a lump sum.  If you sell on a unit basis and you expect your hired forester to man the roadway for you and know where everything goes, I fear you will be dissappointed.  I dunno about your area, but I've bought tracts from consultants both lump sum and on a unit basis, and never saw the forester step foot on the property after we made the deal either way.  We didn't steal timber and won't, but I thought for a fee the man oughta at least show up now and then, pretend to be doing something.  If you wanna sell on a unit basis, be sure you trust who u are dealing with, that they have an excellent reputation, and check behind them--nothing wrong with calling the mills, or setting up your lounge chair on the job and watching the trucks leave if you are retired and have the time, or set up a camera in the woods if you wish.  If the logger cares that you do those things, you don't need him cutting for you.  An honest man has nothing to hide.   And if nothing else, make sure he provides you with a detailed summary of the products and volumes removed, and is able to show you the wood tickets.  You should be able to know the day it was hauled, the product hauled, the volume on each individual load, and of course the mill the load was hauled to. 

Finally, the help create some sorta visual pic for you as to what these tons look like--as stated by swampdonkey, there is so much variability in trees per ton that you will probably find yourself going nuts trying to figure your tons based on how many trees they are cutting down.  With our tree length tractor trailers (typically 40 ft trailers) and weight regulations, we average from 22 to 25 tons on a loaded tractor trailer...that might be 25 large hardwood logs or seemingly hundreds of tiny pulpwood sticks...but the goal is to haul a full load, so you can picture a loaded truck heading out with 22 to 25 tons on it (if its big wood and they haul it overweight, you can definetely get more than that on a load, i'm saying legal loads)

[Ron Scott]

It appears that your woods needs a sustainable forestry management prescription that intigrates all the resources. You seem to have a particular objective to retain and improve the wildlife on your property with individual game species identified.

It is best to contact a professional consulting forester or the local conservation district forester and have them prepare a management prescription for you. As you can see, there is a lot involved in a timber harvest and more so when all resources are intigrated into the harvest from an ecosystem basis.

[dsgsr]

David that wasn't stump prices though surely. You are hauling it to the pulper and getting that for delivered, yes?

Yes, TexasTimbers that is NOT stump prices. sorry for the confusion.

David

[fishpharmer]

Thanks for all the advice everyone.  I have an update on prices.

I met a logger with a small outfit.  I think he had has one bob truck, one saw and one man.  Not for sure.  But a real nice young fella to talk with.  I met him at the Wal Mart gas pumps filling his truck.  Anyway, I called him yesterday and asked what I had to pay him for a load of firewood logs (hardwood pulp).  He told me he was carrying a load to the chippin mill in Meridian, MS and was getting $30 per ton. 

I asked how many ton he hauled.  He says 7.5 to 8 tons per load.  But tells me he would sell me a load for $250
delivered. 

Is that reasonable for firewood?

He says hardwood pulp is at an all time high.  The chippin mill is by the interstate and I see it everyday.  They usually have alot of stockpiled wood in what I would guess to be a ten acre yard. But recently its almost empty.  So supply seems really short.  Heck hardwood pulp may get higher if we have a wet spring.

Okay here is dumb question.  What is hardwood pulp used for?  Why can't pine pulp and hardwood be put togethor?

Another interesting bit of information is that a major pine mill (in my opinion).  Mid South Lumber, is closing down, they laid off 150 folks.  Also, right in Meridian.  They make dimensional lumber. 
Pine is at an all time low.

[SwampDonkey]

You sure that isn't cords, 8 tons is a very small load of pulp (only 3 cords), I would think 22-25 ton on a small truck. What is a bob truck? Maybe that is a small truck, I know some fellows close to a mill can haul small loads.

Hardwood is used in fine, extra bright papers and Kraft pulp. They often mix softwood for more strength. Last I read, milled pulp was worth $750 a metric tonne.

[Norm]

He says hardwood pulp is at an all time high.

I guess that would make your area the only place in the country it is. :D

Now since I don't know your area that was tongue in cheek but in mine you can't give it away. Anything that can't go into pallet is firewood and firewood prices here are low. I was talking to a buddy of mine that runs a logging truck part time and he said they still had good demand for pallet but that anything else was just barely above pallet prices. He used to be full time but the demand is not there to keep him running full time.

[WDH]

Okay here is dumb question.  What is hardwood pulp used for?  Why can't pine pulp and hardwood be put togethor?

Pine fibers and hardwood fibers are very different, and they are generally not mixed except after pulping. 

[wmrussel]

I'm about to put up timber sale heavy with pine pulp and some chip n saw.  Pine pulp has been up and down in my area, but the chip-n-saw is way down.   Anyone out there with some good news on the pine market?

[Ron Scott]

Not good here.

[SwampDonkey]

I guess that would make your area the only place in the country it is. :D

Must be for a short moment eh Norm? As you indicate the market sure don't support prices being an all time high.

I think there is some confusion between round wood pulp price and milled pulp. $30/ton for round pulpwood is even lower than at our mills. And even the milled price is not at an all time high. It was up in the $800's when foreign mills started closing down. Our mainstay mills that have been born here in NB such as Fraser and Irving have shut down saw mills here and there on temporary basis, but their pulp mills have been chugging right along. I guess it depends on whether they care about NB or not. It's quite obvious to me who does care. ;)

[nsmike]

fishpharmer, I don't know how the mills operate where you are but according to my quasi brother in law, who works with natural regen pine stands in NC, almost all of the hardwood pulp from that area is a byproduct of clear cutting the pine stands. The hardwood is seperated out and sent to the chipping mill. If thats true in your area, and their not cutting pine, it would expalain why there are no logs at the chipping mill.
Mike

[Woodhog]

Many of the ranchers in my area are pulping their timber for $5!  Shocked

I am watching load after load of "pulp" going past my place and most of the loads are sawlogs. They load pulp trees all on one and sawlog worthy trees on another. They aren't bucking them in the field though.

They aren't pulping those sawlogs are they? There's a mill in DeKalb that will buy those sawlogs and that's got to be where they are going. I haven't dropped in to nose around on any of the sites yet but am going to.

What are pulp prices in y'alls areas?

Am I getting old or is this a very confusing thread, are people talking stumage prices, pulp as ready to make cardboard boxes, firewood prices, log prices of pine or hardwood, bob trucks ??, english or metric tonnes, cords or tons per load  ?price roadside or price delivered to the mill???
[/quote]

[Banjo picker]

We do have a few interisting phrases here.  But I think a bob truck down south is a truck that has about a 16 ft or so (give or take a ft.or two) bed.  Tim

[WDH]

A bob-tailed truck was the term for a truck and attached rack that was used when pulpwood was cut into 5 foot lengths and either loaded by hand or with a "Big Stick" loader.  It can also be used, as previously mentioned, to haul 16 foot sawlogs. 

[thompsontimber]

Hardwood roundwood is not at an all time high in my area yet, but its getting close and is certainly in high demand whereas pine pulp roundwood is in the toilet, markets are tight and prices falling.  Hardwood pallet logs not doing well either, with pulpwood bringing more than pallet logs at most of the local markets.  You can see pretty nice mixed hardwood logs heading down the highway tree length to the chip mill every day, not feasible for people to cut out pallet logs.