I want to justify a mill......Financially speaking.....

[Piston]

I'm wondering how you guys who saw for a living price milled timbers?  If I wanted to have some timbers milled to say, 12X12, do you still just price them in bdft? 
I know for something like 1x12's you could just say, 30cents a bdft right?  (number just for example, I don't know how much it is) 
But do you still use that same 30cents per bdft for timbers?  I'm just curious because it would only be 4 cuts (assuming the log was JUST big enough for a 12X12) so your not sawing as much.  But I know your still handling the same amount of material so it could be the same???

The reason I'm asking is because I am trying to figure out roughly how many timbers I would have to cut to break even from buying a mill (a LT-15 or 1220 or something that size)  I was thinking it would be about 8k dollars with the options I would want. 
So if I'm milling only timbers, and not slabs or 2x lumber or something like that, how would I figure out (roughly) how many bdft I would have to mill, to get my moneys worth?  Rather than just hiring someone with a portable mill to do it?
I don't want to mill for others and make money on it, I just want it purely as hobby (for now)  :D 
Thanks for any info!

[Fla._Deadheader]

You are going to need some Dandy logs to get 12 X 12's. There will be plenty of side lumber, so, you need to figure that in as part of the cost-profit.

  We saw by the bd/ft, OR by the hour, whichever seems fair to both us and the customer.

  You are absolutely right on about the handling of those beams. You better have some support equipment, or a good Truss.  : : ;D ;D :D

[zopi]

Meh...quit trying to justify it..if you can afford it buy it...the body is not a temple, it's an amusement park and you only get one go.

Life is too short to saw lumber on non orange mills. :D

Timbers are typically priced per running foot from what i have seen...and it probably won't be the same price as for 1x stock, logs suitable for big timbers are scarcer than the pecker poles you can get a coupla 2x4out of...hence costlier....

You might look at the used market..I love my LT-15...but I sure do wish I had one on a trailer...LT-40
or LT40 hyd..

[ladylake]

Your 28 years old, a mill cost less than a new car, pickup, boat or a lot of other things that won't be worth much in 10 years. Go for it.   Steve

[beenthere]

Piston
Think of the bd ft as just a volume of wood.
What the wood is (timber, stud, furniture lumber, pallet lumber, or whatever) will likely mean it will have a different value per bd ft.

An analogy, a quart is a measure of volume.
If it is a qt of milk, or cream, or maple syrup, or water......there will be a different price per quart that it is priced.

Fine that you don't want to make money, but as well you don't want to lose money either (I'd think  )

Calculating the numbers will depend on what you pay for the logs too.

[DRB]

To make a 12X12 you need a minimum 17 small end inside the bark perfectly straight log. Realistically if you want no wane on the beam a 19 to 20 incher is called for.  If you make 4 cuts and that is it then you are wasting a lot of lumber and it is the best lumber form most logs the outside boards.  I would charge by the BDft to saw beams and yes the yield is higher then sawing the log all into 4/4 but the beams are difficult to handle and so it takes about the same amount of work. If it bothers you then charge by the hour but make sure you can make money at the rate you quote.

[Ron Wenrich]

I always use the formula profit = lumber value - log value - mfg costs.

To get to breakeven, you'll need to figure the cost of your mill, the cost to run it, and the cost of blades.  You'll also have to figure out how you're going to move logs.

Log value is going to be how much you pay for your logs.  It won't be free.  You'll run out of those in pretty short order, especially if people think you're making money.

Lumber value is what its worth.  A lot depends on grade, species, and dimension.  Large timbers fetch a higher price, but there is a limited market. 

[DanG]

If I understand right, you'd be sawing your own logs for your own use, right?  In figuring if you can justify the purchase, I'd recommend using 20¢/bf, to help absorb the operating expenses.  At that rate, you would pay the sawyer $2.40 per running foot, plus paying for sawing all of the side lumber.  I'd say that little mill would pay for itself rather quickly. ;)

[timberfaller390]

My theory is this: If you buy a mill and saw your own timbers which I assume is for a house, then you will have not only good timbers cut exactly how you want them but also the add satisfaction of building something from lumber you have sawn yourself. If nothing else if you buy a mill then you never have to buy another board again...ever. My mill is the equivalent to a WM lt40 and I gotta say anything less would be too small for any kind of building lumber cutting. I say go for it. If I justified everything I bought I probably wouldn't own a *DanG thing.

[Ianab]

Do you see this as a one off, or occasional thing you might do every few years?

If so, get your logs staged up and get in somone with a high production hydralic mill. Pay him the $500 a day or whatever the going rate is and carry on.

But if you see yourself with an on going supply of logs and building/woodworking projects for the next 20+ years, go and buy the mill.

The cost isn't huge, people spend way more on boats, cars, snowmobiles etc. Try justifying the cost of a boat in terms of the fish you are going to catch? You dont right.. you justify it in terms of being able to go fishing whenever you want.

With a small sawmill you justify it by being able to saw your own timber when you want. Need to build a fence? Reclad a shed? Just like the idea of a shed stacked with 'almost free' wood?

Ian

[Magicman]

If you are cutting your own timber, you have to factor in the "growth rate".  If it is growing at a 5% rate, then that is a fairly good return on your investment to let them grow.

If you plan to cut and sell lumber, then you need a market before you invest too heavily.  Check prices at the lumber yard and see what you can buy for.  Recently, I have turned down supplying lumber on a couple of jobs because cutting my trees and then sawing and selling at or below the going rate was not profitable.  I'll let my trees grow.

When starting a new business, it really needs to be a "sideline" job until you have paid for your equipment and built up a good customer base.  (consider a used mill?)

Also, with a lower production mill, will your output be enough to turn enough profit to meet your expectations?

You are asking the right questions to the right people in the right place.... 8)

I'm not trying to be negative, just urging you to think carefully before making life changing decisions.

[backwoods sawyer]

I want to justify a mill......Financially speaking.....
Don't we all!!!

[Chuck White]

Piston;  You mentioned Wood-Mizer sawmills!
Just click on the Wood-Mizer logo on the left of the screen and you will get options and then you can click on the sawmill you're interested in, and you can watch a video of that particular mill!
In the video they'll give you an idea of how many bf per hour you might be able to saw.

Good luck picking the one you want!  ;)

[moonhill]

You can't go wrong with a mill.  I like the boat to go fishing with comparison, that is a lot of Bass.  A sawmill equals Freedom.

It has been said you can increase the yield/volume of your wood lot by cutting timber with wane on it.  I can get a useful 12"x12" with a 13" top.  The down side, if there is one, I have to deal with the wane.   It all depends on your tolerance. You may not need a perfectly straight 19"+ topped log.

Tim

[customsawyer]

I do alot of 12"X12" X40' oak timbers and I will admit that your bdft/hr goes up but you have to have more equipment to handle them so your production cost goes up.

[Banjo picker]

Piston your mind and your heart are at war right now....Thats the heart that wants the mill ,the mind is kicking in the justify card....If I were betting right now my money would be on your heart. ;)  Tim

[bandmiller2]

Piston if you can afford it and want it, buy it.You can always cut what you want then sell the mill.Chances are you will sell it and buy a hydraulic mill if your humping many 12x12 timbers.If you hire someone to cut and start building you will need many dimensions you haven't planed for. Frank C.

[Tom]

But do you still use that same 30cents per bdft for timbers?  I'm just curious because it would only be 4 cuts (assuming the log was JUST big enough for a 12X12) so your not sawing as much.  But I know your still handling the same amount of material so it could be the same???

That's the kind of logic you will run into as a sawyer from people who don't saw.  You are almost always sawing side lumber or you are wasting the log.  You have to have experienced the "pucker factor", as a sawyer, when cutting a beam from a log.  You have to read the log correctly and then you have to get the beam out of it. The closer the log is to the size of the beam, the more difficult it is to find it.  Nonsawyers see the size of the end of the log and think  they can expect anything out of it that will fit.  The sawyer sees more than the end of the log.  He sees sweep, scars, knots, holes, twist and many other things that might direct him to cut the beam a certain way or discard the log.   If it's your log, and you are sawing it, you will benefit from all the 2x6's and 1x4's that you gain from the outside.

I guess you have to make some justification for buying a mill, but if you can afford it, it becomes easier.  A mill may cost less than a bass boat and be used every day.  It will save the sawyer money on his own stuff and make the sawyer money on other people's stuff.

A bass boat takes you fishing on the weekend, maybe once a month and sits in the garage the rest of the time.  They seldom have the opportunity to pay for themselves.

For the most part, a sawyer who charges 30¢ a board foot will charge it for a 12x12 as well as a 1x4.  If you are in a good production position with help, you might change the price a little to help the customer, but it is seldom a written price that you advertise.

[backwoods sawyer]

That's the kind of logic you will run into as a sawyer from people who don't saw.  You are almost always sawing side lumber or you are wasting the log.  You have to have experienced the "pucker factor", as a sawyer, when cutting a beam from a log.  You have to read the log correctly and then you have to get the beam out of it. The closer the log is to the size of the beam, the more difficult it is to find it.  Nonsawyers see the size of the end of the log and think  they can expect anything out of it that will fit.  The sawyer sees more than the end of the log.  He sees sweep, scars, knots, holes, twist and many other things that might direct him to cut the beam a certain way or discard the log.   If it's your log, and you are sawing it, you will benefit from all the 2x6's and 1x4's that you gain from the outside.

I guess you have to make some justification for buying a mill, but if you can afford it, it becomes easier.  A mill may cost less than a bass boat and be used every day.  It will save the sawyer money on his own stuff and make the sawyer money on other people's stuff.

A bass boat takes you fishing on the weekend, maybe once a month and sits in the garage the rest of the time.  They seldom have the opportunity to pay for themselves.

For the most part, a sawyer who charges 30¢ a board foot will charge it for a 12x12 as well as a 1x4.  If you are in a good production position with help, you might change the price a little to help the customer, but it is seldom a written price that you advertise.

Very well put Tom!
The longer the beam the more challenging the first cut.

I had a customer who bought a couple of log truckloads of Doug-fir and wanted them milled up into nothing but beams, however he was uncomfortable with the board footage price. Therefore, I told him I would mill them on an hourly rate. I kept track of the board footage as well as the hours. In the end he saved $20.00. For a job that size whether it was board foot or hourly I still would have rounded it down to the same amount.
I had another customer that was uncomfortable with an hourly rate on hardwoods, so I worked out an increased board footage rate that he was agreeable to. He claimed he had been stiffed by a slow plumber in the past.
If you are looking to justify buying the mill, another way would be how many hours could you hire a backhoe or other piece of equipment in your area for, for the same amount? For example if the going rate to hire a backhoe to dig a pond is $80.00 an hour, and the price of the mill is $8,000.00, then you would have to justify that you would use your mill at least 100 hours. If the going rate is $60.00 an hour, figure 133 hours and 20 min before your time and maintenance cost even comes into the equation.

[Piston]

  WOW! 
I wasn't expecting so many replies!  I guess I really did ask this in the right place!  I'll try to answer all the questions and fill you in more on what my 'ideas' are.  I guess I should have explained a little better in the beginning, I was just trying not to make my post toooooo long....

Well the 12X12 was more just for example because to us newbie's it's easier to think of bdft that way (at least for me.)  So I'm not actually planning on sawing timbers that size, however if I could I would love to, don't know why....

My "master plan" between my wife and I, is to finally move up to NH from MA which we have been talking about for a couple years now.  I don't want to say that I'm gonna buy a mill, cut my own trees, mill my own lumber, and build my own timber frame....but that is what I DREAM of doing.  My grandfather owns 50acres in the lakes region and has offered us an opportunity to build a home up there (I have been going up there since I was born, always dreamed of building a home there, and was told by him that he never wants the land to leave the family.)  He has owned it since the '60s and lives in a 200yr old small home, nothing special but a ton of character.  There is also a barn built at the turn of the century, it is not traditional timberframe as there are some milled 2x4's for supports, but still the rafters, joists and some framing members are hand hewed, some only one side.  I love that land and the character of it's buildings, stonewalls, and views of some mountains. 
Well my grandmother on the other side of the family, has some land in MA, just up the road from where I live.  It has some decent white pines on it (I really need to get some kind of inventory on them) and I always thought of how neat it would be, to use the timber from her land, to build a home on my grandfathers land, sort of joining the two of my favorite pieces of property together......
     So that is my idea behind all this......now to get more specific.

First of all....to help you all sleep at night and breath a sigh of relief, I can tell you I have already decided (long before this post) that I will buy a mill  8)  Really the idea behind justifying it financially, was that I wanted to figure out if it would cost more to have someone cut the timber for me than the cost of the mill.  I don't have any final drawings yet (working on it) for the frame, so I don't know the total bdft I will need, so sorta impossible to say really. 
I have posted a bit about deciding between the 1220 and LT-15 and am still in the decision process (that's an ENTIRELY different discussion altogether.)  I've gotten the brochures, dvd's, and been back and forth many times with Will at TK and Bill over at WM.  I've read long and hard about both, basically came to the decision, they are both great and I will be happy with either, I'm not compromising on the diesel though, I like diesels.....

I have a backhoe for moving the logs, an older dynahoe, which although not fast, is a beast!  Plus my father has a small 30hp tractor I can use any time, thinking of a skidding winch for that.

I can also use his trailer and my F350 to haul the timbers up to the site when ready...I realize this would take some time and fuel, but that is a small expense overall and I'm not worried about it. 

If I understand right, you'd be sawing your own logs for your own use, right?  In figuring if you can justify the purchase, I'd recommend using 20¢/bf, to help absorb the operating expenses.  At that rate, you would pay the sawyer $2.40 per running foot, plus paying for sawing all of the side lumber.  I'd say that little mill would pay for itself rather quickly. ;)

Yes, just my own logs for my own use.  After the house was built I would plan on keeping the mill (if I didn't upgrade already!) for strictly hobby use, like Ianab said, building a shed with practically free lumber, off my own land, or maybe even get into cabinets or something like that...who knows?  I certainly don't.....
Also thanks for your example with $2.40 Per running foot.

If you are cutting your own timber, you have to factor in the "growth rate".  If it is growing at a 5% rate, then that is a fairly good return on your investment to let them grow. ..  Recently, I have turned down supplying lumber on a couple of jobs because cutting my trees and then sawing and selling at or below the going rate was not profitable.  I'll let my trees grow.

This is an intersting thought, and I didn't think of it until you said that.  I certainly don't want to cut down every tree in sight and ruin the forest for my future generations.....I will keep it in mind.

My theory is this: If you buy a mill and saw your own timbers which I assume is for a house, then you will have not only good timbers cut exactly how you want them but also the add satisfaction of building something from lumber you have sawn yourself....

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking, I couldn't think of a greater accomplishment....

If you hire someone to cut and start building you will need many dimensions you haven't planed for. Frank C.

I work a strange schedule where I will have 3-4 weeks off at a time, and then 3-4 weeks working my normal job.  I am thinking that I don't want to have to wait on another sawyer to mill me up an unanticipated timber when I could do it myself and get back to work...Or what is most likely going to be the case, when I mess up on one and have to start over on a new one... :D


Thanks for all your replies and opinions.....It's amazing I can get online, post a question, and have all these answers from all different people from all over the country....I'm still amazed at what we can do. 

As I said earlier, I have been back and forth with TK and WM and told both of them I am planning on buying one of the two in the late fall or early winter of this year.  I like to take my time and research things before I dive in and spend a good chunk of money on something I could have for a good part of my life.  I would be completely lost without the help of this forum.  Actually....I wouldn't even BE in this situation if it weren't for this forum!  :D
Thanks again.

[thecfarm]

I bought mine just to build out buildings with. You could do so much more with it building a house.But before you start building make sure you can use it for a house.Some states it needs to be graded for a home.  :  By the way,I always push for a 20 foot mill with a manual mill.Much easy to roll a 16 foot log on to a 20 foot mill.Have more room to be wrong.With a 20 foot mill you have 4 feet to play with not 8 inches. Real hard to move a 16 foot log side ways on a manual mill 2 inches.

[nas]

Piston

  I bought a mill as a hobby three years ago when we bought an old farm.  I wanted to be able to repair the house and barn with the same size timbers that were in it originally.  The word got out that I had a mill and now I am milling nearly full time.  The fact that I love doing it helps too. I don't really look at the market rates for lumber much, but charge what I need to make a living.  When I am selling lumber I actually charge more for large timbers than for planks.
  To financially justify your mill you can look at the depreciation, not the cost.  Your $8000 mill will probably only depreciate $2-$3000 in 10 yrs, so that is the true cost of the mill for that project.  Of coarse there are the operating costs too,  but that depends on how much you use it.

Nick

[Magicman]

You stated that you were planning to build a home and utilizing "rough cut ungraded timbers".   Be very sure that your house plans clearly state that you will use #2 grade lumber/and or rough cut ungraded lumber.

I'm not trying to get into your business, but at least where I live, new building have to be inspected for code and also to verify that the building materials use are the ones specified on the house plans.  Financial institutions also make inspections during and after construction.

I have had many instances where homes were being build using my sawed lumber.  I always advise the customer and they make the necessary changes on their original house plans.  With these changes noted, there has never been a problem with code inspections or loans.

(As a side note:  It's my understanding that FHA, etc.  doesn't accept ungraded lumber.)

[Piston]

Thanks for the advice about the grading of timbers.  I just sent the code official at the town hall an email about building a timberframe home with ungraded timber.  Hopefully I will hear back from him early next week. 

.

  Be very sure that your house plans clearly state that you will use #2 grade lumber/and or rough cut ungraded lumber.

I'm not trying to get into your business, but at least where I live, new building have to be inspected for code and also to verify that the building materials use are the ones specified on the house plans

So it sounds like, as long as the town accepts the plans that have it specified on them, then I would be okay? 

What is the difference between #2 graded and ungraded rough cut timbers? 

On a side note, somehow with all the calculations I did, although I don't remember the numbers I came up with, I was able to justify the sawmill..... 8)
Thanks.

[Hilltop366]

Time to cut is also a factor to consider, but it looks like you got that covered.

.

By the way,I always push for a 20 foot mill with a manual mill.Much easy to roll a 16 foot log on to a 20 foot mill.Have more room to be wrong.With a 20 foot mill you have 4 feet to play with not 8 inches. Real hard to move a 16 foot log side ways on a manual mill 2 inches.

so true,  Look at the maximum length of lumber you need to cut and go a few feet longer with your mill, I don't have much trouble moving a log a little bit (or a lot) to one side, I use a long piece of 3"x5" resting on the mill frame with one end under the log just off the balancing point keeping the end of the log that is in the direction you want to move it up of the frame. Works like a charm.