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New toy - Kohler 16hp engine questions

Started by Ljohnsaw, March 29, 2016, 08:34:52 PM

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Ljohnsaw

So I pulled the trigger and bought this new toy:

 

 

It is called a Case Davis 16+4 Trencher.  The 16 is the engine size and the +4 is four wheel drive.  I think it is from the mid 80's.  The engine turns over but the wiring is rotted, the carb is froze up and is missing a coil of some sort.  Some of you have Kohler engines on your mills, right?  Wondering if you could give me a hand.

Here is what I found/see.  The badge on the engine says it is a Kohler K341S (something illegible) No. 71265 Serial Number 9603378

 

There is this unit that has three connections.  Two of which come from under or near the flywheel.  A loose wire is just the right length and goes to the amp meter.   So I'm assuming this is the rectifier to charge the battery, correct?

 

Next is this funny black box with a single black lead that is not connected.  Anyone?  Is that related to the coil?  Can anyone give me a clue as to what kind of coil I'm looking for?

 

Since it does not run, I disconnected the main drive motor so we could push it from his trailer to mine.  Since this thing has a top speed of 2.1 MPH, I'm planning on replacing this small sprocket with one 2 or maybe 3 times the size.

 

My plan is to remove the digging chain/bar and hang my snowblower on the "front", powering it from the digging chain sprockets.  I will re-install the plow blade on the "back".  Then I can plow or blow snow, depending on the conditions.  I suppose I could also use it as a micro-skidder :D

And finally, the hydraulics are a combination of direct control of valves and cable control of valves.  After messing around a few hours, I found two cables that are rusted up.  One for the parking brake, the other for the turn cylinder.  Have any of you seen something like this?  The large mounting nuts are 15/16" for scale.

 

 

Thanks!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Jim_Rogers

That cable thing in the last picture looks like a standard snow plow cable we use to move the levers to make the plow angle right and left. Except for the second end. But other than that it's pretty much the same.

Good luck on getting it running.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Brian_Rhoad


Gearbox

that small box in pic 4 is the points . the k series are starting to get hard to get parts for . you may find parts from john deere as they used k series in 212 and mabey 316
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Kbeitz

Yep thats the point box. Make sure you take out the little points plunger rod and oil it up.
E-bay has lots of parts for that engine.

Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Ljohnsaw

Well, at least the points are easily serviceable.  I'm used to the old B&S having the points buried under the flywheel. :-\
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

sawguy21

Check for spark, the engine may have been converted to breakerless which would explain the disconnected wire.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: sawguy21 on March 30, 2016, 12:44:01 PM
Check for spark, the engine may have been converted to breakerless which would explain the disconnected wire.

No, don't think so.  There is a spark plug wire attached to the spark plug and other end hanging on the side of the engine.  There is no electronic module.  Plain and simple - missing the coil.  Just finished stripping it down.  Points are corroded and need replacement, carb is froze up hard.  Even sitting overnight with Blue Creeper didn't free up the choke or throttle plate.  Can't even get the float bowl nut off.  Nice simple carb - hate to have to buy a new one.  Might try soaking in carb cleaner now.

Pulled the parking brake cable off and took some measurements.  Found a place that stocks and makes "Ag" cables.  They have the one the steering valve with my part number listed but the brake cable does not have a part number.  Now to find out the price... ::)
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

r.man

I had a similar motor that had a worn cam so the points wouldn't open, put in an electronic kit to get it running.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

Ljohnsaw

Went to NAPA and picked up a coil, points, plug, fuel filter and fuel line.  Installed the coil, point and plug.  Cam lifted the points just fine.  Re-wired.  One odd wire off the ignition switch that I think was connected to the fuel pump.  Not shown in the Operations Manual - probably had a manual fuel pump originally.

Carb looks like its toast.  Found one on Amazon for about $40.  Figure I'll get that since a rebuild kit is $12-16 and that's without having to replace the float.

Called the hydraulic shop that makes the ag cables.  Got a price of $44 on the one - sure beats the price I saw online with another company of $122!  Waiting for a quote on the other (parking brake) cable.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Remle

"Went to NAPA and picked up a coil, points, plug, fuel filter and fuel line." Did the coil have a condenser with it ?? If not you will need one !!

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: Remle on March 31, 2016, 10:51:45 AM
"Went to NAPA and picked up a coil, points, plug, fuel filter and fuel line." Did the coil have a condenser with it ?? If not you will need one !!

Yep!  Had a dooh! moment when I got home.  Picking up one today.  New carb might be here on Saturday so might have it running soon.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

John Mc

Looks like a nice project.

Do you know at what RPMs your snowblower likes to be driven? Performance on those drops off quite a bit as you slow them down.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: John Mc on April 02, 2016, 08:42:50 AM
Looks like a nice project.

Do you know at what RPMs your snowblower likes to be driven? Performance on those drops off quite a bit as you slow them down.

I don't know and will need to look it up.  My first try with this blower I cobbled a 7hp motor to it and was belted down to about 2:1.   

 

It worked great until the belt started slipping.  I found that the DR Powerwagon was just too much hassle (shifting forward/reverse) and not enough traction.  So I picked up this trencher to make it easier.

Next question, though.  The tires need to be replaced. 

My "goal" for this machine is to be multi-purpose.  I will keep the digging chain around and hope to make it a fairly easy swap on on off the frame.  I will use it for snow blowing and plowing.  I have a thought about rigging up a winch (12v, possibly mechanical like Kbietz or hydraulic) and use it as a little skidder with a log arch.  This doesn't weigh in like a tractor but at 1,800#, its nearly 3 times the weight of my ATV (which has limited success moving logs).

Obviously, Ag tires would be best in the dirt, but I'm having concerns about traction on snow and ice.  Chains would be required but they are a bit of a pain on ags, right?  If I put turfs on, chains would be good but dirt not so well.  I could use chains on the dirt but I would think that would eat up the ags.  Thoughts?

Also, best pricing on 23.0 10.5x12 6 plys.  I'm seeing about $300-350 on a set of 4 off of eBay (Deestone brand).
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

thecfarm

I blow snow with the wife's tractor.30hp,turf tires,the rear are loaded. Yes,chains would be easier sometimes,but I have a 500 foot driveway and it does it easy. I may not be able to blow snow uphill,but that only happens in about 2-3 storms. I just drive up the hill and get to the top and I'm all set. How much more for 8 plys? Just thinking of the woods. Stumps and rocks,if you have rocks, are hard on tires. I cut my stumps real low,but the woods are hard on tires. Even on a small scale. Try it with no chains and see what happens.
Looks like you need fire wood too. How about a trailer behind it? I use the wife's tractor in the woods and put a trailer behind it. It did real good with it. I was happy with it.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Remle

Looks like a fun project. I know pictures often do not do justice, that is to say the tires maybe worse than they look in the pictures, but they do not look to bad, IMHO, theirs more life left, I would run them till they go flat.. The turf tire won't be good on dirt or snow, so I'd stay with the Ag tire, chains will not hurt them. Which way does the seat face ? Sure would be nice to be able to flip it both ways to face the direction you are traveling in..

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: Remle on April 02, 2016, 07:51:20 PM
Looks like a fun project. I know pictures often do not do justice, that is to say the tires maybe worse than they look in the pictures, but they do not look to bad, IMHO, theirs more life left, I would run them till they go flat.. The turf tire won't be good on dirt or snow, so I'd stay with the Ag tire, chains will not hurt them. Which way does the seat face ? Sure would be nice to be able to flip it both ways to face the direction you are traveling in..

Each tire has a unique problem.  One looses air.  On a few, the sidewall is starting to peel off.  On another one or two, the lugs are starting to peel where they were sitting on the ground for 7 years.  All are deeply checked where they were sitting on the dirt.

The seat (as shown in the operators manual) is just a block of vinyl covered foam.  My seat actually swivels.  There are foot rests just above and behind the plow blade and another set in the middle.  When trenching, you face the trencher (where my snowblower will be) and drive backwards when digging.  When back filling, you face the blade.  The joy stick on the side controls direction and speed as well as the steering.

All I have found on-line are 4 ply and 6 ply.  Monday I'm going down to the big tire place in Sacramento to see what they have to offer.  Who knows, maybe they will have some decent used ones...

I was thinking of adding tubes so I can fill them.  There was a thread on here I think debating what to use - Rim-guard (I think that was beet juice) or WW fluid?  Do you fill them all the way up, half way or ??
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

thecfarm

I would get at least 6ply. I would be tubes in them no matter what. Wife's tractor and my tractor,as soon as I would have trouble with a front tire,a tube would go into it. I think both tractors front tires have tubes in them. If putting tires on,put tubes in them. I just think it's better. Stopped the flat tires on both tractors.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ljohnsaw

Yes, I'm not doing anything less then 6-ply.  Years ago, I had a big old 1961 Case 210B that needed tires.  They were filled with water.  The rims were rusted a little bit.  From that point on, I put tubes in everything.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

John Mc

Quote from: ljohnsaw on April 02, 2016, 08:06:30 PM
I was thinking of adding tubes so I can fill them.  There was a thread on here I think debating what to use - Rim-guard (I think that was beet juice) or WW fluid?  Do you fill them all the way up, half way or ??

I'm not a fan of WW fluid, but I know lots of people use it.  Rim Guard is significantly heavier, and is completely non-toxic, so if you get a lea, you don;t have to worry about a pet getting in to it.

You do not fill the tire full. You fill it just enough to cover the top of the rim. This leaves enough air in the tire to give it some flex. Since the liquid fill is not compressible, it would be like riding on tires made of stone.  If you fill with something non-corrosive (like RimGuard), you can put in a bit less: some folks fill to just below the valve stem. When adjusting air pressure, they roll the tire to put the stem on top and not have to deal with liquid coming out of the valve stem.

Another note: when running filled tires, people often drop the tire pressure a bit. Since there is less air space, you tend to get a stiffer ride (which bounces both you and the equipment a bit harder). Airing down a bit partially helps make up for it.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Ljohnsaw

New carb didn't come in on Saturday  :( Tracking says Monday.  So I've been doing little things that needed doing.  The pins for the blade were all wrong.  The two big ones were about 1/4" to skinny so it flopped about and the top pin (on the ram) was a way-too-long bolt.  It was all threads, so not too strong.  I made up new lower pins from a piece of 1" rod that came with it.  It had a slight bend so it could not be run all the way across - so I made two pins out of it.  I replaced the too long bolt with a bolt that the threadless part was long enough to reach.  If it bends, I'll replace it with a grade 8 bolt.

It has a parking brake (that could double as an emergency brake) that was stuck.  It is actually a caliper disk brake mounted on the drive line.  Pretty fancy.  Tore it apart, cleaned (now shinny aluminum) and lubed it.  It actually has replaceable pads.  Made by Hurst.  I was impressed.

I finished up the wiring and was messing with the starter.  Even though I installed the new battery ground wire, it wasn't a good ground.  I was measuring 7 vdc at the starter???  Redid the ground but the solenoid wouldn't fire.  Then I realized the piece of iron it was mounted on, I had removed from the engine to get at some hydraulics.  No ground, dooh!  After reattaching it, engine turns over just fine.

Took the tires off and tossed them in the truck.  I'll hit the tire place and see what they want for their tires.  Might get them there if not too much more than eBay.

Moved on to the fuel pump.  It wasn't making any noise when the key was on.  A really old one that apparently is rebuild-able.  But the electrical seems shot - so off to the store in the morning.  After I flush the tank, I should have it fired up by the afternoon tomorrow (assuming the carb shows up) :)  Oh, yeah, the push-pull cables (steering and parking brake) I ordered should be in Monday or Tuesday.


So just a thought.  Reading other posts about snow plowing/blowing and traction.  Wide tires are great for flotation, but bad for snow traction (so they say).  The hubs are 5 on 4.5 - pretty standard.  I'm thinking I could get some small car tires (i.e. narrow), throw some chains on them and be all set for snow work.  Wada think?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

John Mc

While the tires are off, consider having them put some valve stem guards on, if it doesn't already have them. Knocking off the stems usually isn't an issue when ditching, but it can be for some of your other planned uses.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

thecfarm

Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ljohnsaw

A rather successful day with what seemed a major setback.

Picked up a fuel pump this morning.  Hard to find a pump that is rated at 1-1.5 psi...  I found one that does 1.5-4 and since my tank is below the engine and fuel must be pumped up about 18", I figure that one will be safe.

The gas cap fits pretty snug.  I ran new hose to the tank and was able to blow (pressurize) into the hose and then stick it in a bucket to catch the old fuel as it ran out.  About 2 cups of green stinky goop.  Dumped in a little gas, rocked the trencher to mix and drained again, and again, and again until it was running fairly clean.  Then I hooked up the pump (with filters) and cycled some "clean" gas for a while back into the tank to rinse it well then drained it again.

So just then, the carb arrives  8)  I add the intake elbow from the old carb, make a gasket (why don't they include one?) and scrounge my junk pile to find a tiny circlip that is needed for the throttle linkage (why don't they include one?).

Put some fresh gas in the tank and crank away.  One POP and then nothing, just some fuel mist exiting the carb  :-X

So I pull the head off and find the intake valve stuck up  :(  I'm bummed at this point.  I take the time to de-carb the head, valves and piston.  I push down on the intake valve and it pops down.  Hmm.  Hand crank and it sticks again.  Push down, it pops down.  Did it a few more times and all is good.  Must have gunked up the stem sitting for 7 years and when it was turned over, it stuck.  Blew out the intake with carb cleaner.  Put the carb back on and then realized I forgot to put a air shroud back.  I'm getting good and pulling off the carb.  Dug out my old click torque wrench (was about to sell it on eBay several times) and torqued the head back on.

Cranked it over and it sputtered to life.  Barely turning over, it sounded like a hit-n-miss and looked like a steam engine puffing out clouds of white smoke.  Probably the carb cleaner and a little oil?  After it warmed up, just a little bit of smoke.  The muffler is vertical and quite rusty.  I was having a shower of rust particles as it was running.  Despite the bad muffler, it is actually a pretty quite running machine.

I have the wheels off and also the drive chain.  I was able to run the hydraulic drive motor forward and reverse and raise and lower the chain boom.  I have the hoses off the blade and will check that tomorrow.  Hopefully the cable to do the steering and the brake will come in tomorrow so I can complete my work.

I could not get tires locally for less than $113 apiece  :o  I took one more look on Amazon and a new listing (3/31/16) had some 23.0 10.50x12 ag (lug) tires for $60 each and free shipping.  I ordered 4 and they gave me a $10 discount ???  Not gonna complain about that!  Also ordered some tubes.  Tubes are supposed to be here Friday (already shipped this morning) and don't know on the tires yet.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Ljohnsaw

Got my tubes yesterday but tires are due in next week.  Also found an air filter assembly on eBay - should be here early next week with filters and perhaps my control cables.  I decide to pop my tires off the rims so I can clean them up and maybe weld on some valve guards.  Made this:

 

 

Works pretty well.  Here is the hood in its current condition:

 

 

There is a grab bar that will get re-installed that goes across the top of the dash board on the hood.  I rotated the muffler back to where it should be and the air cleaner will fit behind the cutout in the dash.  I have a plate that covers the hole.  I happen to have the top off of a front load washing machine.  It's just a tad too big but I like the rolled edges.  Whadaya think if it had a new paint job?  Too red-neck?

 
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

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