You Don't Think POWDER POST BEETLE is for REAL?

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

My next door neighbor came over today and asked me did I know what a Powder Post Beetle was since I worked for the Forestry.
I told him indeed I do and have met them at the sawmill also.
His house was built 18 years ago. His flooring came through his contractor from a flooring supply company in N.C. Over time he and his wife have noticed some shrinking in the Oak flooring.
Not big cracks but enough to notice in a few places.
They got to noticing holes, 7 or 8 in a 6 inch circle all through the house.
They called the contractor, he put them in touch with the company. The company said they will be there this Wednesday and take a sample of the bug.
I didn't have to take a sample....I recognized the little critters right off the bat. The Beetles will come out of the hole sometimes and scamper to another hole. They are not termites.
Here's a pic of a dead one in this bag. Not a good pic but look at my wedding band. He's on it.


 
I got to looking at the floor....you can see the holes.


  

  

 
Now this is where it gets serious.....
Here's a book shelf.


 
I looked at it. The beetles are coming from the floor and tunneling 5 feet up in the shelf and coming out the leg of the shelf toward the top. See the holes?


 
Here is their coffee table.


 
Check this out.


 
Those are not scratches but trails the beetles have cut.
The beetles are in the kitchen table, kitchen cabinets, the stairs and bed post.
We've talked about this bug before on the FF, I've had it come up in my forestry class before but this is the first time I have ever seen them in a house.
In my opinion, the flooring was not dried to the right temperature and if their thermometer read the temp correctly.....the interior of the wood did not get hot enough to sterilize the flooring and held the beetle eggs and these suckers have been eating this house for years and they are just now getting noticed.
They have also contacted their insurance company. They are coming Monday.
I know there are bugs where I saw them but if the beetles have entered the studs and joist....it looks like a demolition job to me.
This is why a Kiln is so important if you're selling interior wood. This is a very serious problem my friends have here.
I hope my pics are good enough to understand how serious an out break of PPB can be. $$$$$$$$$

[Joe Hillmann]

What makes you think they originally came from the flooring rather than the many other sources of wood in the house?

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

What makes you think they originally came from the flooring rather than the many other sources of wood in the house?

The floor is shrinking. It would not shrink if it had been kiln dried properly.

[scully]

That is kind of disturbing ! My cabin has been infested since day one . I used everything you could imagine to kill them but nothing had any affect . What gets me in this situation is they are going after all the wood even finished !

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

A house can be fumigated for PPB. I don't know how effective it is. We don't know the destruction of the interior of the wood. Wednesday we will go under the house and see what it looks like.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

That is kind of disturbing ! My cabin has been infested since day one . I used everything you could imagine to kill them but nothing had any affect . What gets me in this situation is they are going after all the wood even finished !

Scully, from what I saw, bed post, shelf legs etc. are not finished on the very bottom of the leg. The very bottom of legs are usually bare wood and this is where they enter.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Here's one crawling. My neighbor just sent me this.
https://youtu.be/pbJZGwetzgQ

[bates]

I've never seen these in Michigan.  Guess there are upsides to getting below 0 weather.

[Cedar Eater]

The only thing I've heard of that stops them is copper naphthenate and I'm not all that certain about that. It leaves a green stain on your wood similar to pressure treating and it smells pretty bad. If you only use it to seal the end grain on furniture legs, it wouldn't be too bad.

[carykong]

Timbor is a brand name boron salt mixed with water will penetrate and kill powder post beetles. I built my home with wood off my LT25,all air dried.  I treated all my rafters and joists with timbor.  Timbor solution will not penetrate a finished wood surface only raw wood.  The solution is not  toxic to humans. The only way to treat finished/painted wood with timbor solution is to actually inject every visible hole with needle syringe of timbor solution.

[woodyone.john]

I think fumigating will only kill flying adults,ie after they have come out of the wood. To stop them going in ,zinc napthanate is colorless but leaves a greasy finish so is difficult to poly or what ever over.Boron treatment can be done with water solution if sawing and treating a week maybe 2 if the weather is not (from stump to treated) too hot-boards are dipped or sprayed to dripping and block stacked for 2 or more weeks and wrapped all round to allow the boron  to osmose (if that the right word).After the wood starts to dry a little then you have to mix your boron with a gycol solution.This much I know, the concentrations Idont, you would need tothem get from an expert in the business. Kiln drying will cook anything at the time of kilning but if the atmosphere the timber is used in is going to see the wood get to 12 ish or more %mc then you would be back in the risk zone again.Hey Poston was the infected wood sap or did it include heart wood also.Is you white oak q robur ,here the borer wouldnt get a start in our heart wood or least I havnt seen or heard of it. I do hope your mates come out of this o.k.

[red]

There must be a big commercial sawmill operation nearby . 

[Hiway40frank]

Ok playing devils advocate here, but what are the odds that the infestation has nothing to due with the building material? Like say the bug hitched a ride in on someones clothing or just found the house?

Not sure your location but up north where I live I think letting the house get bellow zero for 3-4 days would kill them. Thats what we do anytime the mice get bad or other bugs take up residence.

[Kbeitz]

My Dad got them in his barn. Back in the 70's he soaked the whole barn with DDT.
That fixed the problem. You cant get that stuff anymore.

[thecfarm]

That is too bad. What a mess. The insurance company will try to get the money from someone. They won't want to pay.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Here is a really good read on PPB.....both of them. Its amazing how different these 2 PPB's are.

https://entomology.ca.uky.edu/ef616

[Sixacresand]

Boron spraying boards does take time and requires more rehandle.  For twenty boards, the process would take me an hour or so. 

[Verticaltrx]

What is their basement or crawlspace like, damp? In my experience as a contractor, when you have higher humidity/moisture levels in and under the house is when you get problems with insects of any type. If you can really dry the structure out often the bugs will move out.

Our old farmhouse and barn both had quite a bit of PPB damage when we bought it, both were damp (dirt floor in the barn and basement). Put down a vapor barriers and poured concrete floors in each which considerably reduced the moisture in the buildings. Have not seen any evidence of PPB's since.

[Slingshot]

      Makes you wonder about selling someone a piece of furniture you
  make using air-dried lumber?


__________________________-

[Cazzhrdwd]

I sell a bunch of wormy red oak and it all has to be heat treated. I had thought once they hatch they move on. They don't like dry would, maybe that's ambrosia beetles I'm thinking of.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

There are two,insects that leave small holes, 1/16" diameter or smaller.  The ambrosia beetle, which is in the powder post family likes wetter wood, so it develops in air drying, but cannot live in dry wood.  However, the tunnels will be found in dry wood and when the wood is machines, the tunnels will sometimes be split open, leaving long grooves.  In fact we see this in some of the pictures, so these tunnels indicate an infestation of them in air drying, but not in dry wood, like flooring, cabinets, tables and shelves.  So, holes in the area of the grooves are also old, inactive holes.

The second insect is the lyctid powder post beetle, which prefers dry wood (Above 75 MC).  They originate in a house by bringing them in with some hardwood species.  They do not affect softwoods, so the framing is not infected, except in old houses where they might have used chestnut framing.  These insects need rough wood to lay their eggs.  The eggs may not hatch for many months.  So, normally in flooring, the rough lumber is planed in a flooring machine, eliminating any lyctid PPB, as the eggs are at the surface.  When the eggs hatch, the small larvae tunnel in the wood for as much as a year or two with no evidence.  Then then hatch to an insect and tunnel to the surface, leaving a hole as they exit.  They exit the wood and mate, as soon as they can find the opposite sex.  The female lays her eggs right away and then both male and female die immediately.  So, it is almost impossible to find the insects as they are out of the wood for only a few days before they die, are very small, and do not like light.

In the present situation, there was no mention of fresh fine sawdust.  Without fine dust, the insects you see are likely one that is using the old holes and not a PPB.

You cannot supply enough borate by spraying or brushing the surface once or twice with the water solution to penetrate deeply into the wood where any PPB would be living and boring tunnels.  Fumigation is the only option at this point.  Heat, an option for lumber, will cause shrinkage and melt adhesives.

Note that any wood with a finish on it is too smooth for the lyctid PPB to lay eggs; they need a rough surface with open pores.

So, based on the info provided including the exposed tunnels and the lack of dust being reported and the fact that insects are seen, it is nearly 100% that these are not active lyctid PPB.  Of course, if I get money for treating, I would perhaps be a little inaccurate or else I would not get the job.  I might even bring the softwood framing into the picture.  I see no evidence that the flooring is the source of the supposed infection.

Note that fumigation is done with a dangerous gas to humans that also destroys the ozone layer.

[starmac]

This makes me curious as to what the old timers did, way back before kilns were used. There are still many houses standing that were built with green lumber, probably most species, and there is lots of antique furniture, some centuries old that is built of hardwood from all around the world.

Just curious, what they did 100 or even 200 years ago to combat the problems.

[Magicman]

So Gene, what I am reading into your Reply is that there is a good possibility that this problem is not really a problem?

[red]

I think an 18 year old house would have showed some more clues much earlier . They must be coming from that sawmill next door .

[ladylake]

 
  I've built most of the furniture in my house (some 30 years old now) plus sold lots all air dried and the finished off with a dehumidifier in a small room , never heat treaded and have never had a bug come out of any of it and yes some had the small holes in it.  Steve