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Winch line twist

Started by ga jones, October 09, 2015, 09:11:42 PM

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ga jones

 

  can anyone tell me how to get this twist out??! I've been stretching it every night with no luck.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

lopet

Can't really tell you how to fix it, but I know how you did it.  ;D

Oh, chopping 10 or 12 feet of, but that might not be a option.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

ga jones

It happened on one trip. I guess I routed it wrong??
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

so il logger

Is it a new line? If so I wouldn't buy anymore of it  :D I have that problem when the main line get's short, seems like the cable develops a memory from being coiled so much. May not be your case at all

treeslayer2003

its wound on the wrong way. yes i know it sounds stupid. if you can take it off and put back on back wards i bet it will straighten right out. in other words, use the choker end now as the drum anchor. it has to do with the twist when it was made.

Spartan

Lay it across one of your big stumps and beat it straight with a large hammer (sledge) and a whole lot of grunt.  See if that helps.  Works on chokers.

mills

Quote from: ga jones on October 09, 2015, 10:06:45 PM
It happened on one trip. I guess I routed it wrong??
I feel your pain. My cable looks just like your's. It's about a year old and did great until I hooked up two big logs that were several feet apart. I've screwed up like this before with other cables, but they straightened out after a couple dozen pulls. Not this time. Even pulled hard enough the other day to break a fairly new choker, but I still have a ten foot section that looks like a pig tail. I haven't yet left it under tension over night.

jd540b

Stretch it.  Run the cable all the way out attached to the base of a big tree.  Winch it in with your e-brake on a turn or two until your front tires are about to lift off the ground.  Leave it like that overnight. That will help alot.

teakwood

Mine looks the same! I didnt have much luck ether with stretching them. I just live with it ???
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grassfed

Look at this page and double check to make sure it is wound correctly. http://www.stren-flex.com/wire-rope-handling.aspx  If all of that is correct then pull all of the wire out and lay it straight behind the skidder. Pull on the wire and see if it wants to twist one way. If it wants to twist let it twist until it feels even. Fasten the rope to a stump and pull it good and taught and leave it there overnight. Wind it back on the spool by pulling the skidder back to the stump with a bit of drag on the brakes.
Mike

OH logger

if it were me I would just go back to using  the grapple :D
john

millcreek40

Mine looked the same way. As already mentioned  hook it to a tree overnight a few times.  Worked for me
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Magicman

Giving the cable a good pounding/whacking while it is under tension will allow the strands to slip and equalize.  This will aid in removing the curly.
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lynde37avery

Cable does the same thing that gift wrap ribbon does when curled with scissors. Just happens when the slides on the  cable are winvhed in just right.
Detroit WHAT?

jwilly3879

That's why we don't use swedged cable.

CCC4

Quote from: jwilly3879 on October 10, 2015, 04:49:57 PM
That's why we don't use swedged cable.

I agree. We tried 3 different swedged cables and I think they are junk. They bird nest on the spool when in free spin, if they get kinked they break...they just seem like a total waste of money from what experiences I have had with them. 

I learned from sawmilling that some cables are just junk, you never really "save" money by buying a leser cable. I figure this goes for mainlines...however saying that...swedged lines are expensive and junk! LOL!

ga jones

I don't like swedged cable either I had it so I put it on. It was fine for months until I started this clear cut. I'm hooking 6 trees all over the place. I'm sure I did it.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

mills

Quote from: OH logger on October 10, 2015, 01:03:19 PM
if it were me I would just go back to using  the grapple :D
:D :D :D Yep, option #1!  :D :D :D

lumberjack48

I ran cable many years, swedged cable is absolutely worthless on a pole skidder, stiff, heavy, and coils up, it takes all the fun out of running rigging.
When i ran rigging in Montana behind a D8 skid cat they used reg 5/8 cable with 12 to 16, 9/16, 8' chokers.

My thoughts, i would never, never run swedged cable. A reg 9/16, 75' lasted about 6 months of steady logging. This all depends on the skidder operator. I've had guys ruin a mainline in one day [ no brains, you use kickbacks and rolls, you don't keep pulling until something breaks. I learned in the early 70's if i wanted to get wood out fast and easy the tree faller never leaves the skidder. He falls drag for drag and helps hook. When using a pole skidder its the fallers job to keep the skidder moving with no issues. This is what i learned, and i learned it the hard way.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

TW_Nate

On the last drag of the day, esp. when it's a new cable, I let almost all the wench line out on a long straight-away, and pull it most of the way back in, keeping pressure on the line when I leave the machine for the night.  It builds memory in the cable and usually keeps that from happening.

I've heard that called "piggy tailing."  Kind of like curling ribbon when wrapping a gift.  I think it happens when the cable gets pulled against a tree around a turn or when wenching.

ga jones

I'm not working that job this week I'm Working  with the c4.so I ran the winch line out hooked a 10 foot choker to a little tree and twisted the chain choker opposite way of the line twist and tensioned it. I'll be back to it on Saturday I'll see what happens
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

redprospector

I posted a drawing once that showed how I avoid "pig tailing" my main line, but I got laughed at.  :-[  But I'm really not very thin skinned.  :D

If you want to avoid a pig tail in your main line, you may have to change a few habits. If you pull a sharp turn from one choker slide to the next one, and you're not pulling pecker poles, you will curl up your cable. It was described earlier as being like running ribbon over scissors, and that's a pretty good description of what's going on.
To avoid a mess like this you have to plan out your turns/skids/drags (whatever you want to call it  ;)). Trees have to be felled in a manner that will keep you from pulling a sharp turn from one choker slide to the next, or you may have to do a little prep work with the skidder before making a drag.
Or you can do like I do when a hired hand is running my skidder and cut it off a couple of times, and buy a new main line every couple of months. The choice is yours. But I've never had any success straightening a curled up cable.  8)
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

ga jones

380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

redprospector

You're welcome ga jones. It really wasn't much though, just my 2 cents.  :D
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

ehp

Andy , I'm with you on this and have been doing it this way sense I started driving skidders which was at 10 years old , this is how I was showed and told by my Dad , do it this way or your not going to be sitting on your butt any time soon cause its going to be sore . I run swedged cable only and donot have any problems with curls or twist . I'm going to do 1 more job with this cable and then switch it out for a new 3/4 inch swedged one . I got 12 months so far on this cable and pulling fairly big timber all the time . I have had 2 guys come and try to help me and both are to be loggers and have been logging a long time , Both hook the hitch up the wrong way and use the last choker on the mainline so the closest choker to the ball end on the mainline as their first choker , I try to tell and show them why not but they just donot get it and in a hour or so the mainline is a real mess

lumberjack48

  This is a example, when your cutting Aspen that runs 3 to 4 trees to a cord, drag for drag, running 6 chockers. Its in imposable to fall then in a straight line, unless you lay them on top each other, we all know you can't do that. Theres many times you run the full line out to hook 6 trees. When the skidder came back i'd grab  3 chokers run them out to the first tree to hook, 50', 60' or 70' feet and hook my way back, while the skidder operator hooked the other 3. Then i'd stand off to the side while they were being winched in. As soon as i saw there were no issues, i'd get in front of the skidder  and run up to where i was topping. I liked to do this every 15 to 20 minutes. The point i'm trying to make, of course your mainline is zig-zagged to hook them up. Even if you hook one tree at a time, you have to pull your mainline and choker over to hook it. I could have done it the way its being talked about. But do you know how much time this takes. I wanted 30 drags on the landing at the end of the day not 10. The only place i liked swedged line is pulling trucks.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

coxy

Quote from: redprospector on October 15, 2015, 09:26:23 PM
I posted a drawing once that showed how I avoid "pig tailing" my main line, but I got laughed at.  :-[  But I'm really not very thin skinned.  :D

If you want to avoid a pig tail in your main line, you may have to change a few habits. If you pull a sharp turn from one choker slide to the next one, and you're not pulling pecker poles, you will curl up your cable. It was described earlier as being like running ribbon over scissors, and that's a pretty good description of what's going on.
To avoid a mess like this you have to plan out your turns/skids/drags (whatever you want to call it  ;)). Trees have to be felled in a manner that will keep you from pulling a sharp turn from one choker slide to the next, or you may have to do a little prep work with the skidder before making a drag.
Or you can do like I do when a hired hand is running my skidder and cut it off a couple of times, and buy a new main line every couple of months. The choice is yours. But I've never had any success straightening a curled up cable.  8)
x2

teakwood

Quote from: lumberjack48 on October 16, 2015, 06:06:54 PM
  This is a example, when your cutting Aspen that runs 3 to 4 trees to a cord, drag for drag, running 6 chockers. Its in imposable to fall then in a straight line, unless you lay them on top each other, we all know you can't do that. Theres many times you run the full line out to hook 6 trees. When the skidder came back i'd grab  3 chokers run them out to the first tree to hook, 50', 60' or 70' feet and hook my way back, while the skidder operator hooked the other 3. Then i'd stand off to the side while they were being winched in. As soon as i saw there were no issues, i'd get in front of the skidder  and run up to where i was topping. I liked to do this every 15 to 20 minutes. The point i'm trying to make, of course your mainline is zig-zagged to hook them up. Even if you hook one tree at a time, you have to pull your mainline and choker over to hook it. I could have done it the way its being talked about. But do you know how much time this takes. I wanted 30 drags on the landing at the end of the day not 10. The only place i liked swedged line is pulling trucks.

Thats exactly how my situation is with the teak, a lot of zig zaging the line but the trees just weight between 100 to 400kilos, i run 8 chokers and sometimes drag 14trees per hitch.

My question is: i have 160' swedged 9/16 and i could use 200' sometimes but the drum is already overfull. I bought swedged because my thoughts were that i can have a strong cable but with thinner diam so i can place more on the drum and that swedged is going to suffer less because the surface is smoother. Now i hear that lots of guys are against swedged cable here. Can you explain? Should i go with 9/16 normal next time or maybe 1/2" (swedged or not) so i can place more on the drum?
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coxy

I had 1/2in swedged on a jd 350 dozer with 4 sliders and it would walk through it pretty easy if it snagged anything I run 9/16 swedged on both of my skidders but only 75ft jmop I hate regular cable always seem to get the little metal splinters in my hands again jmop  ;D

teakwood

Quote from: coxy on October 17, 2015, 07:17:08 PM
I had 1/2in swedged on a jd 350 dozer with 4 sliders and it would walk through it pretty easy if it snagged anything I run 9/16 swedged on both of my skidders but only 75ft jmop I hate regular cable always seem to get the little metal splinters in my hands again jmop  ;D
Dont know if i understood that. You say that it didnt hold up to much? and it snapped  easily?
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coxy

it was weak  if you where pulling and it got stuck on a root/stump or rock and put a little pressure on it it would snap the cable  it may be ok for a tractor winch but not for a skidder/dozer jmop

teakwood

How big was that winch on you dozer? How many lbs pulling force?
My 9/16 swedged is rated for 22to braking strength a 1/2 swedged is rated around 16to but my 3305 winch just has a pulling force between 5 to 8 ton. So i think that 1/2 line could be strong enough?
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lopet

You can probably brake 1/2 " easy, but as you don't seem to be running into some big timber, I too would go with that. You 'll be amazed how many more feet you get on your drum.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

teakwood

Quote from: lopet on October 18, 2015, 11:11:06 AM
You can probably brake 1/2 " easy, but as you don't seem to be running into some big timber, I too would go with that. You 'll be amazed how many more feet you get on your drum.
Very good point! More feet on the drum and alot less weight to haul as i also have to haul 8 chokers. Would you go with swedged? What is your preference? 
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Kbeitz

Swaged wire rope is manufactured by compacting standard wire rope until the diameter is reduced.  The result is a wire rope with greater strength in comparison to standard wire ropes of the same diameter.  This denser product can withstand more abuse than standard wire ropes making it popular in the logging industry.

Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

coxy

Quote from: teakwood on October 18, 2015, 09:12:24 AM
How big was that winch on you dozer? How many lbs pulling force?
My 9/16 swedged is rated for 22to braking strength a 1/2 swedged is rated around 16to but my 3305 winch just has a pulling force between 5 to 8 ton. So i think that 1/2 line could be strong enough?
I have the 3315 same as yours just a newer

lopet

Quote from: teakwood on October 18, 2015, 12:35:14 PM
Quote from: lopet on October 18, 2015, 11:11:06 AM
You can probably brake 1/2 " easy, but as you don't seem to be running into some big timber, I too would go with that. You 'll be amazed how many more feet you get on your drum.
Very good point! More feet on the drum and alot less weight to haul as i also have to haul 8 chokers. Would you go with swedged? What is your preference?

It all depends what you do and how big is your timber, how big is your twitch or production ? How much money you wanna spend ?
Speaking of money, I have no idea about the price difference between swedged and regular cable.
My self I use 12mm and 14mm metric cables which came with my winches. I don't do a whole lot of heavy stuff but they do get abused once every while and when they start pigtailing I just chop a few feet off as the ends look pretty rough by then anyways.
You may find some answers in Kbeitz post too.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

treeslayer2003

Quote from: teakwood on October 18, 2015, 09:12:24 AM
How big was that winch on you dozer? How many lbs pulling force?
My 9/16 swedged is rated for 22to braking strength a 1/2 swedged is rated around 16to but my 3305 winch just has a pulling force between 5 to 8 ton. So i think that 1/2 line could be strong enough?
can't believe that teak, a 540 grapple weighs a little over 8 ton and the winch will easily drag it back wards wheels locked and dragging.
i have a whole roll of new 1/2" you can have if ya come get it lol. the wife got it at auction, it is of little use to me.

teakwood

Quote from: treeslayer2003 on October 19, 2015, 12:31:07 AM
Quote from: teakwood on October 18, 2015, 09:12:24 AM
How big was that winch on you dozer? How many lbs pulling force?
My 9/16 swedged is rated for 22to braking strength a 1/2 swedged is rated around 16to but my 3305 winch just has a pulling force between 5 to 8 ton. So i think that 1/2 line could be strong enough?
can't believe that teak, a 540 grapple weighs a little over 8 ton and the winch will easily drag it back wards wheels locked and dragging.
i have a whole roll of new 1/2" you can have if ya come get it lol. the wife got it at auction, it is of little use to me.
:D Mine is 7.3 ton and yes the winch drags the machine back wards. Pulling force (specs are from the deere book) bare drum 9.3 ton, full drum 5.8 ton.

Most of european winch manufactures (Igland, farmi, adler,..) put just 12mm or 13mm cables on their 8 ton winches and they are strong enough, that's actually around a 1/2" (12.8mm). Wont see a skidder with 5/8 (15.8mm) cable or bigger in europe.

Kbeitz: I now what swedged cable is. I was hoping to get more different opinions on the likes and dislikes. On said that on free spool you get a birds nest on the drum, that they are sturdy. coxy said that he don't likes the little busted cables standing up on regular cable. These are all very good and valuable points.

lopet: Your right, now i just work with small trees, so i would like to try a 1/2 cable. I don't like the situation when i have to back up the skidder deeper in the slope just because my cable is sometimes to short, that's dangerous. As the trees are getting bigger i would have to consider  using bigger cable. I haul 12-14 now per hitch, in 3 years maybe 10 and in 8 years maybe 4-5 as they can weight up to one ton.
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

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