Part-Time Sawmill Business

[Mcgeezer]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to the forum, and have been reading some great articles here.  Nice to chat with you all...

I'm looking at switching careers into more agriculture/farming.  A small sawmill business would be a big part of this (along with honey, firewood, Christmas trees and more).  I have only around 60hrs of actual operating experience on a bandsaw mill,but lots of felling/spacing hours with a saw in my hands.  I have realized now at 35 years old that being in the bush, and having a career that makes one happy is the most important thing in life!
I was hoping to lay out some of my business ideas here int he hopes that you folks would provide some feedback for me with your shared experiences/knowledge.
-We have timber rights on a Christmas tree permit in eastern British Columbia.  Our bush is 70% Douglas fir, 20% western larch, and 10% ponderosa pine.  Many trees are 40"+ in diameter and lots in the 20-30" range.
-I would like to start small, using cash to startup as opposed to thinking too big and being buried in debt.  The market I'm targeting is renovations through my contacts in the building trades.  Slabs for sinks, counters, mantles, tables, benches, and board cutting of the larch for furniture, cabinets etc. and more would be my primary focus, in addition to accent timbers for interior work.  I'm looking at 10-12' maximum logs to begin.
-My idea is to have a friend build a logging arch which would attach to the hitch of my jeep for hauling logs to the mill.  I do have some issues with placing logs/taking timbers off the mill, as I will be mostly working alone, and don't have the capital to purchase a tractor or bobcat yet.
-The mill I'm leaning toward is the Woodland Mills model 130.  Does anyone have any feedback of this mill, or suggest something else conducive with my plan?
-I'm really excited about this idea.  I feel i can make some supplemental income (along with other agriculture and substitute teaching on the side if needed) and just let the business evolve and see what happens.

I would greatly appreciate your comments/feedback on this as many of you seem to have a tremendous wealth of experience milling wood.

Kind regards

[longtime lurker]

One thing you need to consider with your target market is drying.

Slabs are funny things IMHO.  Everyone has their own vision of perfect and what one customer thinks is trash is the next guys perfect.  You need to build stock levels before you start so potential customers have a range to pick from.

Being thicker they also need drying time. Orlonger term a kiln . This will become more important as you becone established because you can tie up a lot of $ and space with inventory.

Number every slab as you cut it and take a picture of the thing and record dimensions.  Thatll give you inventory control of a sort. Few things worse then having to handle tons of wood to find some guy's vision of perfection when he could have looked through a pile of pictures to pick it out.

Also think about finishing them. Its a relatively easy value add to level the things.

Look hard at the swingmills like lucas and peterson. Fitted with a slabber they can handle the outsize stuff where the real money is, and attachments are available for leveling and sanding further down the road

[WV Sawmiller]

McGeezer,

   Welcome to the FF and I wish you well on you dreams.

    At this stage still largely too broad a topic for me to comment much but if you have more specific questions post them and if it about anything I am familiar with I'll be clad to comment or answer the best I can.

[starmac]

If I was going to attempt this, the first thing I would do is build the log arch so that it tracks with the jeep.
The first thing coming off the mill would be some beams to build a log deck with ramps I could drive the jeep straight over the deck and drop the log off the arch right on the deck.  I would make it long enough to be able to roll the logs towards the mill enough that I could load the decks with the maximum amount of logs you think you will get out of at least one tree.
next I would buy, beg borrow or steal something to lift and move the slabs with.

[JB Griffin]

The input I have is that woodland mill 130 is going to fall flat on its little green face trying to cut the size logs you mentioned.  I recommend AT LEAST 25hp and I still find that lacking but way better than 7.

[Bandmill Bandit]

Howdy and welcome to the forum Mcgeezer!

Well I dont know exactly where you are in BC but I am pretty familiar with that part of BC.

Spent more than a few years cutting christmas trees in the Kettle Valley and a few others in the area.

Having been down a similar road to what you embarking on I will give you a recommendation based on my experience AND on what you describe as your available timber.

WoodMizer LT40 Hydraulic Wide as a minimum. In hind sight I should have done the LT40 Super when I bought my mill.

The reasons I am recommending this are as follow;

1)  Wood mizer dealer in Salmon Arm
2)  Mill reliability is second to none.
3)  25HP is minimum you need 38HP is much better
4)  Hydraulics and an arch will allow you to be productive without killing yourself
5)  mill design makes things much easier for servicing and off bearing.

The difference in paying off my LT40HD28G mill in terms of time was 11 months.
IF I had bought the Super in the first place that time would have been 13 months.

I have, in the past 5 years turned my mil into what I call an LT40 "almost" Super!
I have
1)  added the second Hydraulic pump
2)  changed out the 1/4 hydraulic hose to 3/8 as required
3)  changed the carriage drive to the 3/4HP
4)  changed the lift motor to the new small frame 3/4HP
5)  added simple set
6)  added my version of FAOs
7)  added a green laser site (my own version with Woodmizer mounting hardware)
*   My engine is not stock as I have access to RD software! currently set for 36HP

Getting to a super has cost me about double of what the price difference would have been at the time I purchased my mill originally BUT I was able to do it and pay for it from saw milling cash flow over a 2 year period AFTER the mill was paid for. No regrets!
But, I am very good at ALL things mechanical and I have a well equipped shop that allows me to have a very nice place with the tools to do such things. If I cant fix it, it ain't broke! And even then I can probably STILL fix it to be better!   
 
Today I would buy the LT40 Super wide with a Yanmar with the wireless remote and a full load of options OR an LT 50 the same way.

You will not regret starting with a bit of debt with a more substantial mill for the area you you are in. Doing so will open a much more diverse and Larger market for you.

IMHO your 3 minimum "MUST haves" in the market space you are shooting for AND your location is
1) 25HP
2)  Hydrualics
3)  Wide throat

While Woodland is a good mill it is NOT the mill you want to start with, based on your intended market.


FYI
Also there is a very good saw mill operation that is likely not too far away from you that is cutting exactly what you are thinking of cutting and he has been there for a good many years. A LOT of the builders even in Alberta go to him for ALL their need in this niche. I have sent customers to him my self. 

You will be disappointed AND frustrated as the capacity and the personal input for the minimal productivity will only amplify the cost of starting out with a minimal system. This fact will also end up costing you substantially more to get to within the range of where you want to be.  Buying a mill with the potential to up grade the mill with manufacturers components as you can afford it will reduce the up front cost BUT will increase the long term cost.

I am happy with how my mill has turned out.
If you take interest on a new mill set up from the factory as mine is into consideration I likely would have spent about the same money as I have to date.
NOT counting my labour and shop time.

The process is pretty well documented on this web site.             

[Mcgeezer]

All great points to consider folks, thank you...

My idea is quite small scale.  Since i would be investing 10k initially maximum, I would have to find good value in a mill.
As I mentioned, there is some big timber on the property, but I don't imagine milling some of that until I've established a customer-base and perhaps taken a step forward with my equipment.
Right now, I would be happy to have just a few orders a month (small orders of timbers for a pergola, entrance facade, few slabs for tables etc) until i gain some experience with all aspects of the business.
Definitely I want a hydraulic mill down the road as you can't beat the increased productivity and lack of manual labour. 

I'd really like to hear what other people do if they have a small business and what kind of orders they fill, who are their customers, and your time commitment to the business.
You all seem very interesting and experienced!

[ladylake]

 
Sounds like you might like a EZ Boardwalk 40  I think they can handle a bigger log than most, far as reliability the less eclectic and the more things run by hydraulics is WAY better.   Steve

[starmac]

Are you talking 10,000 total investment in this venture, or in a mill.

My lt40 is an older, but all hydraulic and was 10 grand with a box of blades a sharpener and setter. I picked up another 30 blades some used once, some new for 150 bucks off of craigslist, and a slr for 100 bucks, then the guy threw in a brand new up and down motor for the head.

There are deals out there, but you have to be ready to jump on them.

[Ianab]

Look hard at the swingmills like lucas and peterson. Fitted with a slabber they can handle the outsize stuff where the real money is, and attachments are available for leveling and sanding further down the road

^ This

What you are describing is the whole idea of the various swingmills. They are designed to be taken into the woods / jungle and break down large logs, without any large support equipment.

Now sure they are all manual operation, at least with the cheaper ones anyway, but you don't have the log loading and rolling issues that you will have with large logs and a manual band mill. Running the mill itself is relatively light work, sure you are walking the mill back and forth, adjusting some levers and cranks etc, but nothing that you need to break into a sweat over. The "hard" work is actually moving all the boards you are cutting  :D , but that's going to be the case whatever mill you have, unless you have more machinery to help move things.

Hydraulics etc are good of course, but likely out of your price range at the moment, especially when you will also need some sort of support equipment to get logs to the mill.

[TKehl]

For $10k, I'd look for a used swing mill (probably 8"), trailer, cant hook, chains, a hand winch, planer, and jointer.  Any extra funds put into air dry building and a solar kiln.  Mill on site and transport lumber.

Use income to buy a slabber attachment for the swing mill. 

Instead of just selling lumber, I'd market "kits".  All the lumber to build a pergola, gazebo, minibarn, etc to capture higher margin on low volume.  (Ideally with a plans and instructions.)

My $0.02.  (That's like a dollar Canadian though... right?    ;D)

[bags]

If you have "good" contacts in the building trades in your area your headed in the right direction. Talk to the contractors your wanting to provide materials to first before you put your feet in the fire and confirm some kind of sales market. I built custom homes in this area for 22 years and now make furniture so folks know me. I mill with a HM130 and the contractors know what materials I can provide and what sizes are available from my mill.

Have a plan, check it twice, and if it works out--- go for it.-------> all it takes to be successful, is blood, sweat and every now and again--->

[starmac]

I know nothing about swing mills, including the prices of them, but it sure might pay you to look into them. They may be just exactly what you need to start out with minimal equipment. As far as that goes, guys have started out small with chainsaw mills, even home built ones.

[4x4American]

How does that permit thing work for the lease?  Is it long term?  If you set a kiln up are you gonna have to move soon?  I think a swinger would be your best bet honestly.

[ChugiakTinkerer]

I'm an owner of an HM130 and while I think it's a more than capable machine for my needs, I'd be reluctant to recommend it if you think you'll be cutting the bigger trees eventually.  The max log size is 30", but the throat is I believe around 22" and that's the widest slab you can get.

If you were in smaller trees or targeting strictly lumber or timbers as a product I think the HM130 or any comparable manual mill would be a good starter.  But if you want to sell slabs, and I understand there's decent margin in them, then you shouldn't hamstring yourself right out of the starting gate.

[sawmilljoe]

I have a hm 126 have used it to cut for other people, sell lumber and slabs up to 20 inches wide.  Mill has held up very well for 2.5 years already.  Would say go for it. Paid for its self very quickly.

[Mcgeezer]

wow all great responses everyone thank you....Lots to think about and ultimately run by my wife  :D

I'd like to hear more about people's experiences with Swing Blade mills.....
They're quite pricey, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to splurge on one right away, although they would be seemingly perfect for the operation I want...

Also with you band sawyers, are you guys cutting 3-4" slabs?  I can picture the blade binding under the weight of the slab near the end of the cut, but I suppose throwing wedges under for support as you cut helps?  Again my experience is limited to 60ish hours cutting mainly boards.

Our permit has been in the family for 60 years.  It's very unique because the Forestry doesn't give them out anymore.  We must prove maintenance, and certain sales requirements each year to keep the permit.  Right now for us, that includes about 150 combines hours of spacing, pruning of Christmas trees and usually around 500-600 in harvested Christmas tree sales.  We do have to apply for special permits to cut timber over 10" but it's simply a matter of paperwork and I'm well into that process....

Again, really appreciate everyones openness and honesty, I'm quickly getting addicted to this forum!
<"What's that honey, yep I'll do it in a minute".... :D

[TKehl]

I got my 6-13 used for about the same price as a new WM130.  It will cut dimensional out of a 48" log 20' long. 

Had to buy the slabber kit new though..., but can make 48" wide cuts now!  Better deals are had if you can get the whole package at once.  (The planer head is still on my list to buy.)  They also tend to sell pretty quick...

Addicted already, just wait until the boards start popping out of logs!

[terrifictimbersllc]

Blade binding due to weight of the wood on top is not an issue with portable band mills. It is an issue with circular blade or bar/chain on a swing mill or slabber/Alaskan mill. Wedges are used with these.

[GAB]

I got my 6-13 used for about the same price as a new WM130.  It will cut dimensional out of a 48" log 20' long. 

Had to buy the slabber kit new though..., but can make 48" wide cuts now!  Better deals are had if you can get the whole package at once.  (The planer head is still on my list to buy.)  They also tend to sell pretty quick...

Addicted already, just wait until the boards start popping out of logs!

You wrote "They also tend to sell pretty quick..."
Could you please expand on this statement?
Are you meaning the slabber kits, or the wide slabs, or?
Gerald

[TKehl]

"They also tend to sell pretty quick..."

Poor editing on my part.  I  meant there are fewer swing mills that come up for sale (compared to other types of mills) and they tend to sell pretty quick when they do.

[GAB]

"They also tend to sell pretty quick..."

Poor editing on my part.  I  meant there are fewer swing mills that come up for sale (compared to other types of mills) and they tend to sell pretty quick when they do.

Thanks
GAB

[Bandmill Bandit]

McGeezer I cut full width slabs up to 8 inches and bigger with my band saw all the time. I have never had a binding issue UNLESS there is extreme stress in the log and then you can have binding issues in a 1 inch board.

A swing blade is a good option for you for sure BUT it does make quite a bit more saw dust waste. 

[dgdrls]

Welcome Mcgeezer,

I operate solo on the side with a Lucas 827.
The bigger diameter timber lends itself to a swing mill.
Move the mill to the big logs, save the log skidding, hauling.
Saw it up, haul out finished product.
My mill was purchased as a used unit right
in your budget price.

With any mill there are trade-off's,  Circles have a little more Kerf/waste
however, blades lasts multiple times longer and can be rebuilt.  Bands are disposable
and most sawyers have a big stock on hand, sharpening and setting are either by you with more tools or a service.  I think all swing mills come with a sharpener, you touch up the teeth right on the mill, takes 5 minutes.
Look at FF sponsor Turbo Sawmill, they have a thin kerf blade and a nice series of swing mills.

Again, its a trade-off to consider in your bigger plan.

With any mill you will have to consider managing, moving and selling what you saw.
Based on your OP I think there is an opportunity there,

Oh, In my experience with sawing bigger "timbers" using a couple wedges does help with moving the
saw through the cut, I usually place a wedge as I pass the end of the log when I'm making my final horizontal cut, between that and the riving knife the timber is held slightly elevated.

Question, is your permit on Crown Lands? Do you have to pay additional fee to harvest the bigger log?

Best
D

[Mcgeezer]

Those Lucas and Peterson Mills look amazing but I think If i were to get a Swinger, that Turbo looks really cool!

Yes the permit is on Crown Land.  There is a bit of a process to acquiring bigger timber which I will update here as we go along (not as much of a headache as actually logging the property), but thus far, I haven't had any additional fees.

Yes D, for me, the cutting of the wood, and to some extent the selling, are the least of my thoughts right now.  I have an awesome '72 8ft 3/4 ton truck box trailer that I would initially haul 10' by 12-18" logs to get started.  Inevitably, I'll have to either hire a truck to bring any bigger timber to where I'll be sawing.  (I'll be parking the mill at my wife's parents' farm about 20 minutes from the permit.
Like my firewood, I want to handle the wood as little as possible, preferably once.  Speaking of firewood, my son is keen on cutting the scrap with his electric chainsaw to sell as campfire wood bundles :D

Right now I have some simple goals:
-Have Fun
-Earn enough to cover expenses and pay the mill off within a year.
-Build an inventory (We live in a very dry climate, so I hope the wood dries in my garage rather quickly)
-Establish a solid customer base (or a reputation of sorts), preferably on a repeat basis.
-Learn as much as I can about the entirety of the business
-Find my niche

Again, I'd love to hear more details about what other folks are doing with their businesses?
You are all very helpful and seem so passionate about what you do...
I can hardly wait to get started in the spring!