Laws concerning removal of deadheads from navigible Michigan waters.

[larboc]

Hi, I've got a small portable band mill that I use for custom cutting. On a recent fishing trip myself and a friend of mine found alot of sunken logs that seem to be in good shape left over from logging days past. I'd like to pull one and see what kind of wood would be in it to potentially make some flooring for a house  project I'm working on.

So far all I can find online is that deadhead removal is legal in florida, georgia, and michigan. However I can't find anything regarding how to go about permits for removal in the state of michigan.

Does anyone have any insight?

[Jeff]

From the Michigan DEQ:

Special note to all persons becoming involved in log recovery operations and the marketing of the recovered logs

Contact:  Martin Jannereth jannerethm@michigan.gov 517-335-3458

Please be aware that logs found on the Great Lakes bottomlands are considered to legally be property of the State of Michigan. A permit is required under Part 326 to recover such logs. The removal of such logs without the appropriate permit authorizations and compensation from and to the State would constitute a statutory violation and the theft of public property and will subject involved parties to legal enforcement actions. Additionally, the receipt of any illegally obtained logs would constitute the receipt of stolen property and subject the involved party to applicable legal enforcement actions.

Similarly on inland lakes and streams the recovery of logs is a regulated activity under the Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the NREPA The recovery of logs from inland waters must be authorized by a State permit. On inland waters aside from the issue of log mark ownership the logs may be considered property of the riparian(s) in the recovery area. The recovery of such logs without the appropriate state permit authorization and without the riparian's approval would constitute a statutory violation and possibly theft of private property and will subject involved parties to legal enforcement actions. Additionally, the receipt of any illegally obtained logs would constitute the receipt of stolen property and subject the involved party to applicable legal enforcement actions.

[larboc]

Thanks for the info jeff, that is what I have been looking for. More information for anyone concerned. Not too bad of a deal given current prices for someone with the $100k to post bond. Maybe they'll take a check? :D

Part 326 Great Lakes Submerged Logs Recovery Program Specific Information Points of Interest

Contact:  Martin Jannereth 517-335-3458
Agency: Environmental Quality

Part 326, Great Lakes Submerged Logs Recovery, of the Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act, 1994 PA 451, as amended became effective on July 10, 2000 and regulates, by a permitting process, the recovery of logs from the Great Lakes.

   1. Once a permit is issued the permittee shall provide a $100,000.00 performance bond at least 10 days prior to beginning any log recovery operations.
   2. Permits are not transferable unless approved by the department.
   3. Compensation to the state for all logs recovered under the Part 326 regulation is based upon a payment of 2.0 times sawlog stumpage value for each submerged log that is removed. This value is based on the most recent average yearly value of standing timber on state forestlands for each species as determined and reported by the Department of Natural Resources. The scaling methods used for volume determination of the recovered logs shall be the "Scribner Decimal C" method for upper peninsula recovery sites and the "International ¼ Inch" method for lower peninsula recovery sites. Both methods shall be used according to rules of the National Forest Service Log Scaling Handbook (FSH 2409.11).
   4. Permittees shall provide the department with a detailed report and all payments due within 30 days after the close of each calendar quarter during the term of the permit.
   5. The timber payments will be deposited into the submerged log recovery fund. Fund monies will be used for administrative costs accrued by the DEQ, DNR, and the Dept. of History, Arts and Libraries in implementing this program.
   6. Any civil action by the department against a person for a violation of Part 326 may be assessed a civil fine of not more than $5000.00 per day for each day of violation.
   7. Any person found guilty of a misdemeanor as defined by Part 326 is punishable by a fine of not more than $10,000.00 per day of each day of violation.
   8. A permit will contain terms and conditions for the protection of the environment, natural resources, riparian rights, and the public trust.
   9. The time of the year that recovery may occur may be limited by the permit.
  10. Log recovery may be limited to logs of a minimum diameter and larger by the permit.
  11. The administration of this Part 326 will not specifically address any historical log ownership issues due to discernable log marks on particular logs.



Any dredging activities proposed, as part of the log recovery operations will require an additional permit review process under Part 325, Great Lakes Submerged Lands. This review for a dredging permit will be conducted through the submittal a dredging permit application to the Permit Consolidation Unit.

[cheyenne]

Just more Gobblement crap to make us nuts.....Cheyenne

[timerover51]

I am looking at doing some sunken log recovery in Wisconsin, but also would like to do some in Michigan as well.  As forestry is not my area of expertise, could someone explain to me what the following statement means in terms of the amount of money the State of Michigan is expecting to get from each recovered sunken log?

  3. Compensation to the state for all logs recovered under the Part 326 regulation is based upon a payment of 2.0 times sawlog stumpage value for each submerged log that is removed.

Also, is the $100,000 a cash bond, or is it a case of getting a bonding company to guarantee the performance bond?  if it is a $100K cash bond, that is a good way of making sure no logs are ever recovered.

[Maine372]

stumpage is the money paid to the landowner for the trees removed. so if you pull out a red oak log that would be worth $5 stumpage if cut on dry land, they want $10.

in the case of one party owning a gravel pit, and another operating it, the money paid to the landowner for the material removed is called gravel stumpage. but theres no stump!

[Ron Scott]

Yes, Michigan makes the salvage of underwater logs quite difficult. Not very profitable anymore at 2 x the normal stumpage value considering the salvage expenses. The bond can be either cash or a payment bond. They use to take a letter of credit, but not sure that they do anymore.

They may also require you to pay the forester's time to scale the logs for their value when you bring them up. Most recent underwater log removals haven't lasted very long.

Wisconsin was a little easier, but I believe they have tightened up some also. Canada has been a little better.

[banksiana]

I live on a lake in MN, we have many sunken logs.  I snorkel and have looked them over.  Definitely sunken logs from logging that took place early 1900s.  I don't know, would they even be any good once pulled out and dried for a sawmill?

[welderskelter]

You will want to saw them as soon as you bring them out. If you let them dry then the silt will dull your saw fast. I sawed some of them years ago, they are water cured , wont warp or shrink. You can leave them out in the sun and cant hurt them. Harold

[SwampDonkey]

Wood is hygroscopic so I don't think I can agree with that. If the wood dries below fiber saturation, I'm sure there is shrinkage and maybe checking.

[isawlogs]

 I agry with SD, they will shrink, I sawed alot of river booms, some just out of the water some that had been stacked over a year to air dry, both piles where sawed for flooring. It all had to be put through a drier to lower the humidity and then it was milled and put down . Other whys it would not have milled correctly and once dry would of been a whack of trouble to fit together.
  What the long term submerst does is let the sap out of the log and replace it with water, the colouring of the wood is quite different then a "fresh" log, the wood is much more stable but rest assured that it will shrink some.  ;)

[timerover51]

I live on a lake in MN, we have many sunken logs.  I snorkel and have looked them over.  Definitely sunken logs from logging that took place early 1900s.  I don't know, would they even be any good once pulled out and dried for a sawmill?

The following comes from a study done by North Carolina in December of 2000 summarizing various state policies covering log recovery.  You can get the whole report at the following website.  http://dcm2.enr.state.nc.us/Facts/log_salvage_report.pdf

You should check to see if this still applies.  There is a fair amount of information on the Internet if you search either "sunken logs" or "underwater logs".  I am looking at working with a group in Ashland, Wisconsin on log recovery, and you need to dry the logs first before cutting to avoid shrinking and warping from the wood drying after cutting.  You might want to check on what species they are first before going much further, as most people looking for submerged wood are looking for hardwoods.  Once you know that, you can look for buyers on the Internet.

You biggest headache is going to be the requirement for winching the logs up, as that will require a substantial boat, not just a motor boat with an air compressor.

MINNESOTA: The Minnesota submerged log salvage framework was
completely revamped in 2000 in Chapter 103G, Section 650, "Recovering
Sunken Logs on Inland Waters." However, logging has yet to occur under either
the previous statutory scheme or the current one (Hubred, 2000). The Minnesota
Department of Natural Resources reviews applications under a 60-day review
process and determines whether to issue a three-year lease for logging
underwater. The new statute defines logs submerged for at least a year as
abandoned property. The commissioner is required to bill the lessee for the
value of the recovered logs based on a rate of 25 percent of the weighted
average selling price for all logs sold from state lands for the preceding 12
months.
The statutory conditions on log salvaging are as follows:
·  Logging can occur only in lakes wholly within the state's borders and only in
water depths of 20 feet or more, and must commence within one year of
issuance of a lease
·  Only one lease per lake; only three leases per lessee at the same time
·  Removal of submerged logs must be by winching; air pillows or lift bags and
other removal techniques are not allowed
·  Recovered logs containing tribal marks (such as stamps) requires notification
by the lessee to the nearest tribal government within five business days
·  The state Historic Preservation Office must be notified by the lessee at least
five days prior to the start of the operation and that office must be allowed
access to all parts of the operation
·  Lessee must hold a general liability insurance policy naming the state as a
coinsured party.
(Office of Revisor of Statutes, State of Minnesota, 2000)
The first three leases have been issued for three separate lakes. Each project
will be monitored by the state for a period of two years to determine what aquatic
impacts occur during the operations (Hubred, 2000).

[timerover51]

The following website gives the current policy of Minnesota with respect to sunken log recovery.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?year=2008&id=103G.650

[SwampDonkey]

Up here all them sinker logs from flooding when dams were constructed I assume are property of the NB Power Corp. They confiscated all water frontage and setbacks along flooded areas of rivers and lakes before dam construction. They removed a lot of wood back in the 1980's from around dams and flooded forest. I don't know where it was sold or used. Maybe it was burned. I saw them with dozers and excavators and boats in the big lakes where their main holding dams are. I see some people build wharfs on NB Power land. If a fellow wants to say, pick fiddle heads along the river banks or fish for trout not a thing the guy with the wharf could say about it.  ;D

http://www.nbpower.com/html/en/safety_learning/learning/Headpond_Property.html