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Costs for low impact selective cutting

Started by Leo Lancer 5738, February 13, 2016, 09:25:46 PM

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Leo Lancer 5738

Need some guidance on bidding on the above topic. Removal of white ash trees, aver dbh 13". Felling, limbing, piling brush, bucking into about 8' bolts. Total trees 6161. Mainly level, dry ground. Summer months operation. 3 years to complete. 6 man crew. Use small equipment. Use small 4wd tractor. 2 crews felling. Workman's comp quote 125k, umbrella liability 10k. Use mid size saws. Either rough estimate per man hour or per tree. Mid-age stands. Not many ash over 50 feet. Some tight canopies. Thanks in advance

BargeMonkey

 Your bidding on the job buying the wood or bidding the job to  cut / remove the wood ? Skidding behind a tractor or cutting to 8' and loading on a trailer ? 6200 smaller trees with 6 guys, shouldn't take long. Hard to give a per tree or per hr, how many acres are you covering ? How long of skid ? Quality of employees who are cutting ? My last faller could do 100+ in the right stuff in a day if he just kept cutting flat out.

Leo Lancer 5738

This job is for mitigation in preparation for arrival of some insect that is supposed to kill all the ash trees in the area. It is up to each landowner as to what he/she wants to do with the wood. Everything is to be felled and left. Brush scattered. Additional money to be paid if landowner wants logs bucked up to firewood length. Plan to add 20% to manpower costs for these requests.

Leo Lancer 5738

About 250 acres total. 10 different landowners. All lots connected. No access problems either

blackbruin

Emerald ash borer,  got em all about killed here in central pa.  I would get an Amish crew and get their bid, add 10% fee for yourself.   

BargeMonkey

 Got to love the EAB.  :D.  I'm having trouble quite understanding what your getting at. Just going in and dropping 6200 Ash for a TSI job, on 250 semi flat acres, I just don't get the idea behind 6 guys / 2 crews cutting. ??? Around here TSI work pays next to nothing, it's almost viewed as a burden on some jobs, a big reason why I see woodlots with 75% of the beech and hemlock girdled and becoming a hazard tree a few yrs later. 2 good guys cutting together should walk thru that. I would bid something like that, without any skidding or extras at 15-20.00 a tree if hand cutting, that's just throwing #'s without knowing all the particulars. The day I stack and pile brush by hand on a log job will be the last day.  :D

Lumberjohn

I would just try to buy it standing (pay accordingly) and sell the logs/firewood if they are not too far gone. At 13" dbh your not going to get many good logs.
I dont understand the 6 man crew behind 1 tractor though?  You will need the 6 guys if you are stacking/piling brush LOL.
If just laying it down I think I could make good money at BMs prices, provided there isnt a lot of messing around with tops.

Lumberjohn

I missed the part about "to be felled and left". Im still around 15-20, a guy could do 100 trees a day. What is the tractor for?

thecfarm

What I do with the brush on my land is cut it into small pieces,3 feet would be the longest and I aim for around 2 feet or shorter. Yes,it takes time,but you said brush scattered. That will take some time too,cutting it in short pieces will make it disappear as soon as you are done. I kinda think they might be looking for a "park look" when you are done.  12-14 foot limbs from one tree will spoil that look. Now if you cut 3-4 trees that are close together,that look is really gone. I log my land with a tractor. This also allows me to drive through my brush without getting a long piece of brush through the raditor.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

sweetjetskier

In CT we have to at a minimum, chip all debris from EAB operations.

Why would they let all the wood stay on site, the EAB still has plenty of wood to feed on and reproduce for a season or more ?

Leaving the debris behind does not seem to make sense, from what I have seen or read.
Arborist, Horticulturist, Nursery and Turfgrass Professional with 27 years experience.

BargeMonkey

Quote from: sweetjetskier on February 14, 2016, 08:11:40 AM
In CT we have to at a minimum, chip all debris from EAB operations.

Why would they let all the wood stay on site, the EAB still has plenty of wood to feed on and reproduce for a season or more ?

Leaving the debris behind does not seem to make sense, from what I have seen or read.
I had wondered that also. Figured it all would be skidded out whole tree and chipped.
This last clearing job I did was quite the paperwork shuffle, anything over 1" was considered "restricted material" and required a transport plan, after some debate what to do with the mountain of chips they used them on site for erosion control.

beenthere

Maybe they are just being realistic, as the cutting of the ash isn't going to stop or slow the EAB. It will only get the ash on the ground where it will not be standing dead at a later time.

That would be my thought... not that the effort is still a bit confusing and suspect the reasons and results are a bit cloudy.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Rick Alger

I assume the tractor is to pull down hangers and pull logs out of slash.

Back in the day 75 trees a day was a decent average for a two man crew to cut, skid, and buck  logs and four-foot pulp in my area. In your project I believe it would keep a third man busy all day lopping and strewing slash.

Because it will be low impact with no doubt all kinds of directional felling challenges, I would say 50 trees per three man crew might be more realistic. Walk the lot with a logger if you can, and get his input.

For wage rates I would look up the Department of Labor prevailing wage in your area for professional loggers and figure from there. For rates on the tractor, some tractor dealers have figures that might help.

Good luck

grassfed

I would say about 4 days per acre per man.
Mike

Leo Lancer 5738

 ;D Thanks for all the response. Never done commercial work, just firewood for personal use (about 100 cords/year). Thought tractor to pull down hangers, quicker than come-along? And scatter brush? As to the brush, up to landowner. Have to also give price for chipping brush. Up to each land owner as to wood use. We will take it as firewood if we can, split it with landowner, or buy it. Only have 3 months/year for project. Some of my calculations come to about 370k for entire project, including insurances. **DanG lawyers   :D

grassfed

I don't see any advantage in using a small tractor on that job. If it is 250 acres you will have the lowest possible impact with a small skidder and a very carefully designed trail system.

I would find a good forester to mark access trails and trees.

Even a small 40 horse tractor is much more awkward in the woods than a Deere 440 or something similar.

If you are going to remove wood you are going to need a trail system and you will cause some damage but by carefully planning the layout and brushing the trail surface you can minimise the damage. A skidder will ride on the brush and tops much better than a tractor.

I have 4 tractors and 1 skidder and I can tell you that an articulating skidder will make less of a mess and be several times safer safer and more efficient .

If you really want low impact job plan and space the trails carefully then use your manpower to brush in the trails then start cutting in earnest. If you try to start cutting and think you can just bring the tractor in when you have a hangup you will have a mess and waste allot of time. 

Skidders get a bad rap because of poor planning,trail layout, and incompetent operators.
Mike

chevytaHOE5674

If all your doing is cutting and leaving the wood then a good feller buncher operator can be very low impact and get the job done way faster and cheaper than anybody with a chainsaw.

finding the trail

 Please keep us updated on how your deal is progressing.

gump

I find that the cost of roads become a factor as well if it is a large area. Your unit cost of road construction per unit of wood will increase. Just a thought..hard to say without knowing more details, but something to keep in mind.

Cutter/Climber

Can you use sub-contractors? I ask because that is what I do. I have a guy that I work for a few days a week cutting for him. I carry my own ins. just like when I had equipment and cut and skid. Now I just cut for a guy. I have made anywhere from $18 to $22.50 per hour. I supply my own saws and gas.

BargeMonkey

Quote from: Leo Lancer 5738 on February 14, 2016, 02:07:55 PM
have 3 months/year for project. Some of my calculations come to about 370k for entire project, including insurances. **DanG lawyers   :D
Let's split the 370K, I do the actual job with my own insurance in 2wks time with a buncher and you have quite the pile of firewood to pick up.  :D. 

BargeMonkey

Quote from: Cutter/Climber on February 15, 2016, 02:40:52 PM
Can you use sub-contractors? I ask because that is what I do. I have a guy that I work for a few days a week cutting for him. I carry my own ins. just like when I had equipment and cut and skid. Now I just cut for a guy. I have made anywhere from $18 to $22.50 per hour. I supply my own saws and gas.
If you where closer I know someone right now desperate for an experienced cutter a couple days a week.

Cutter/Climber

 If you where closer I know someone right now desperate for an experienced cutter a couple days a week.
[/quote]
I don't know if that would be a good thing or not. I don't know how I compare to other peoples rates. The only reason that I don't work more for that guys is that I try to do my contract climbing the other days of the week. Make much more money doing that.

Corley5

  Something you need to keep in mind is that hand falling bug killed ash is very dangerous.  The tops are extremely brittle and create an extreme hazard when they're on their way down.  These trees if they're dead now are losing value every day and the harvest should be completed as quickly as possible.  Three years out.....
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

BargeMonkey

Quote from: Corley5 on February 15, 2016, 06:22:49 PM
  Something you need to keep in mind is that hand falling bug killed ash is very dangerous.  The tops are extremely brittle and create an extreme hazard when they're on their way down.  These trees if they're dead now are losing value every day and the harvest should be completed as quickly as possible.  Three years out.....
I bet you've heard the sound of limbs bouncing off your cab too.  :D 

Corley5

Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

BargeMonkey

Quote from: Corley5 on February 16, 2016, 09:23:50 AM
Oh ya  ;D :)
My wife rides behind my seat sometimes, didn't happen to tell her about that happening. She wasn't too happy.  :D

Corley5

They hit hard.  Makes you duck inside the cab ;D 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Leo Lancer 5738

Everybody on the crew has to be employhed by the company bidding.  Instruction said no subs unfortunately. I see the wisdom behind not using tractor.  Walked most of the tract and have a decent feel for it.  Would spend too much time trying to get around in therre. The numbers put out here are more in line than what I was thinking concerning crew progress.  The contract will only allow small tractor, specifically states no skidders or feller/bunchers.  Think we will use ATV's to pull hangers down. Tight canopy but mostly small trees (12" or less).  Seems to be only removing about 30% of the basal area of the ash.  Seems a waste of money but why not take advantage??? Some areas have high concertration of cull trees where some roads could be laid out but most trees scattered. Not worth the effort except for good sawlogs??  More wet than I thought though. :laugh:

finding the trail

      24 stems per acre, 4 acres per day per man, $100.00 per acre is probably high. 

Corley5

Sounds like more trouble than it's worth.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

thecfarm

I have never worked a ATV in the woods. BUT I would not want to hook onto a 12 inch tree with a ATV and try to pull it down. while trying to make money at it.I have a 40 hp tractor with a 3 point winch and that keeps me out of harm's way when pulling a hung tree down.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Corley5

It also sounds like every tree hugging environmentalist in a 200 mile radius would be looking over your shoulder.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

chevytaHOE5674

Sounds like a job I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.

BargeMonkey

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on February 16, 2016, 07:53:30 PM
Sounds like a job I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.
Cutting dead Ash by hand raises the price up, pulling down with an ATV sounds like a great way to get killed. Unless there was a big bag of money to be made I wouldn't even give them a price.  How many of you guys get calls from landowners just feeling out / not happy with other guys bids ??? I'm sick of wasting time walking lots for nothing, everyone thinks a woodlot is an ATM.

finding the trail

 BargeMonkey,  You know what happens the one time you don't look.

CCC4

Please don't use a 4 wheeler to pull hung timber down...it is just not advisable. Any bidding should allow clearance trees to be cut. ATV's just don't have enough weight and are for sure not designed to pull down timber. I have skid ERC with 4 wheelers back in the day...but you better be a good pilot and have your rig weighted properly in the front...not to mention you will trash your ATV in the long run.

Any pics of said "tight canopy"? Run minimal cutters, figure out a day rate and go with it or walk away...I would be on the fence with this job.

OntarioAl

I have read the original OP post and his continuing commentary several times to get this contract job straight in my mind and I have formulated an opinion.
This contract can only be done safely with mechanical equipment like Bargemonkey's, unfortunately your hands are tied by the constraints put on the contract by the landowner(s).
The reason being that  continuous hand falling in closed canopy conditions  is the most exacting of cutter expertise and hence the most dangerous  therefore it is not a matter of if you will have a serious accident but when.
Pass on this job it is not worth it at any price.
Al
Al Raman

Leo Lancer 5738

Thanks to everyone for all the help/advise. Put bid in. This could lead to several other jobs in the future. Will keep everyone up to date OK progress.

Leo Lancer 5738

Well. The contact was put on hold. Lots of work for nothing. Trees all marked so I hope in the future it will open for bid again

finding the trail

 Sorry to hear you didn't get the bid.  Sounds like the forester/landowner had expectations below the actual cost of doing the work.  It's just business, keep your chin up and move forward.

finding the trail

 I might add that the opportunity still exists.   Communicate with the landowner and his agent and get a feel for what their expectations are. Often you can pick up jobs such as this at a negotiated price.  Good Luck

brianJ

Sounds like they dont understand the costs of business.  You already have done all the inspection work.  So should be quick to  give them another estimate and this one being least cost using your most efficent methods and equipment.   

@cutterclimber.    I think you are working too cheap plus paying all your expenses.   That's why a shrewd businessman like BargeMonkey wants to hire you.

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