Select cuts with Forwarder only?

[SteveB]

Hello all,

I have worked around forwarders quite a bit, but never on their own in select cut jobs beign felled by hand.  I got the impression from readign some posts that this can be doen?  I was basically wondering how you minimize residual damage if you have to drive to within a forwarder's booms reach of everything you cut?

I have seen manual cutting with forwarders on clearcuts, and in the seed-tree stage of shelterwood cuts, but how do you get close enough to grab each piece when your leaving something like 2/3rds standing?  I've worked on jobs where the cable skidder twitches each selected, handfelled tree out to a central area where it is processed and brought roadside with a forwarder, bt i'm interested in how you do this if you're only using a forwarder?

In any selection cut I've been involved with the buncher or harveser reaches off the trail to bring the tree to the trail to be processed, or the line of a cabel skidder is pulled in off the trail to the stump.  Either way, the trails are spaced twice the length of the cable or buncher boom.  The little 4 and 6 wheel forwarders I've seen on this forum don't seem like they'd have nearly the reach that a buncher or single-grip boom or mainline would have.  In thinnings the trails may be two to 4 times the harvester's boom reach and once they've cut two parallel forwarder trails they ghost trail in between and spit all the processed logs out to whichever trail they can reach.

Just seems to me like you'd prety much have to travel most of the way up to the top of each felled tree parallel to it to pick up all the pieces.  Seems like you'd have to travel a lot of the site.  I know I'm missing something though becuase I know it was common before full mechanization in europe to do it with a forwarder somehow. 

[Minnesota_boy]

Have you ever moved sticks by hand?  That's how it was done where I have seen it.  Up-end the upper sticks down to the bigger sticks and load them from there.  :

[Hoop]

This is the method of harvesting I've worked on for years.   With a good skidder (forwarder) operator, residual damage to trees is minimal.  Smaller forwarders such as Iron Mules work great on smaller wood.  However, I have seen double bunk Ponsse's & Fabtecs do an excellent job.  Generally, the canopy of a mature oak/maple/etc is far wider than the forwarder.

Unfortunately, with a HURRY UP, GIDDYUP, operator that is only concerned with quick, fast, easy production, the forest will look destroyed.  I have worked with operators (many of them) that would rather run over 10 trees than to put the machine in reverse for 20 feet. 


This method isn't possible in all types of terrain.  I've seen idiotic foresters on the National Forests assume that forwarders can easily pass between 2 trees 4 feet apart........on a steep sidehill.   There is no one size fits all answer.

[beenthere]

............  Generally, the canopy of a mature oak/maple/etc is far wider than the forwarder..........

Hoop
The forwarder doesn't work 'in' the canopy, does it? ;)  I'm missing your point here.  ???

[thecfarm]

I'm having a logger come in and do just what you are asking about,this guy doesn't own a skidder any more,only a harvesty and a forwarder.Took a lot of thought to allow someone else with a big machine on my land.I just wouldn't let anyone come in and cut.I've known this guys family for years.I've seen a few jobs this guy has done and been happy with the way it looks.He uses a chainsaw with the big trees and plans out the roads so that when the trees fall he will pull up along side the tree running over the brush.He uses directional feeling alot.I just went over to a big job that he was doing for IP,a local paper company.He's doing a super job.Some places he used the harvesty and some he used a chainsaw.Just depends who the driver is.I was real surprized at first.I use to feel the same way you do.He made a beliver out of me.My pine are kinda close together,so getting from one to another should not be a problem.Yes.there is some damage,but you don't get the deep groves from skidding logs.I have a steep hill to get up into my lot and was very concerned with a skidder,but with a forwarder I hope he won't cause alot of damage to this hill.

[SwampDonkey]

Folks with Dion F4's use manual felling. The trails are narrow and closer spaced. Often times you can go between trees easy enough without even cutting a trail. I've seen a couple guys use this system and there's no residual damage.



F4 Dion forwarder on yard



Shortwood processor and grapple mounted on skidder. This contractor also uses the grapple and a pull behind trailor mounted on his skidder as a forwarding machine. I do have a picture of that, but it's not hard to visualize. ;)



Shortwood processor limbing and bucking to length.

This unit is used in small softwood. From what I've witnessed it's usefull in short limby wood in dense stands, but not real productive otherwise.

[Ron Scott]

95% of my jobs are done with forwarders with the products cut at the stump. Good sale planning and preparation are needed by the forester as well as a good plan of operation and care for the resource and landscape by the logger and crew.

A good directional faller and forwarder operator can make a selective harvest look like they haven't even been there. Tree marking patterns need to anticipate the type of logging equipment that will be allowed. An experienced forester can usually do this.

I wasn't aware of any idiotic foresters on National Forest's. ;) Most situations can be worked out with them or alternate methods may be required. The "new" forester and logger usually learn from one another. ;)

[SwampDonkey]

When you have a good logging crew and someone experienced with good common sence (forester or technician) doing trail layout and marking you can do a good job with skidder or forwarder. It also makes a big difference if you own the ground to, but not always. I've seen landowners with the best intensions make a mess of a woodlot. There are alot of people out there who won't seek advise (possibly a management plan) untill their done the job. Too late alot of times unless your just interested in planting and pre-commercial thinning.  :-\

[saw_nut]

 Hi, for the last 5 years I have been using a C6 double bunk forwarder for all types of cutting. For select cuts I fall the wood to the trails and instead of junking the logs completely, I leave enough of a hinge to allow me to pull the entire tree to me with the loader and the snap the logs of at the forwarder. It takes a little practice but when done correctly you don't split the log or have to leave the trail with forwarder. Right now I am doing a final cut in a hardwood stand using the same method. Trails are cut 80 feet apart and the trees are felled to the trails. All of the tops are in the trails. The regen is 10-20 feet high but the only damage is done by the falling tree. The only place the forwarder travels is on the trial leaving 80 feet of untraveled ground between. Hope this helps, Art

[beenthere]

saw_nut
I'm a bit confused over what you just explained and said you were doing. Is there any chance you can show some pics of this 'expert' way of bucking hardwood trees?  A good pic of the 'expertly' snapped stems loaded on the C6 forwarder would be welcome too. Do you avoid the use of a chainsaw other than to fell the tree?  Hope you can enlighten me here. 

[SwampDonkey]

Sounds like what saw_nut is trying to explain is that he trims off the tops and bucks the logs where the tree falls, but he doesn't cut all the way through the log. He leaves a bit of bark and wood so he can pull the tree and breaks off each section with his machine as he loads. I've never seen it done before and I wouldn't recommend it for veneer logs. Might be ok for pulp, but I can still see having to trim off some sliver wood that might be pulled off the adjacent stick.  ;)

[woodmills1]

Admittedly my combination of Kioti 3054 and metavic forwarding trailer is a bit smaller than what you are talking about, but for sure if you go in my woods you can only tell whats gone by the stumps or any firewood tops I havent removed yet.  I can usually find a way to get right up next to the felled tree with out damaging much of the undergrowth.  However from experience  I have found out the hard way that the tractor isn't heavy enough to pull the loaded trailer uphill on the leaf litter forest floor.  In situations where this would be true I will limb the tree and then get the tractor pointed downhill near the top, directional felling the tree so this is possible.  On all but my biggest trees the loader will pull the whole trunk at least one log length.  I buck that log, load it on the trailer then pull the trunck once more, then repeat.

I also have a hydraulic winch on the head board of the trailer so If I get a tree too far from a good trailer location I will pull the whole tree up to the trailer with the winch.  In the cases where I think the tree is too big to pull with loader or winch I will winch either individual logs or parts of the tree.  These types will scratch up the forest floor but the damage is minimal, and I try not to rub other trees.

In all cases I pull the tops out close to the main road so I can get to them easily during firewood runs.  I have the one main road that runs all the way across the property and have only this year needed to start another running off of it to get to a good stand of oaks.

[Woodhog]

woodmills 1, who makes your headboard mounted winch and how big a log will it pull (rating of winch).

I use a Patu trailer and 577 loader for harvesting/forwarding. I make the roads about
15 feet wide as I often have to back in for loading, I find it requires good planning layout and
falling the trees so that they all touch the road is a challenge for me.

I leave about 50 to 60 feet in the cutting strips...cutting all red spruce and balsam fir logs.

I am usually backing up to load if the extraction trail is dead ended, the rig wont back up good
when  loaded if the bottom is bad, rocks etc...it will jack knife.. as soon as you loose your basic
plan of operations tempers flare and you will scar up trees near the edge of the trails...with unplaned manouvering of the tractor. you dont want to have to cut your way out due to poor planning.

The ideal way is to always be moving ahead and come around in slow gradual turns to the main hauling roads...

I also carry a 25 foot piece of chain of logging chain that I fasten on the grappel to extend its
reach for unplanned felling events, hang ups etc....this will extend the reach to a total of about
40 feet into the cutting strip...

When in an area of large spruce 60-70 feet I take the trailer/loader off and put on my winch
as the loader doesnt have enough power to pull them in one piece, also easier to pull down my many felling mistakes on the large trees.

I winch to the trails for a few days and then put the trailer on and go bring the stuff out.

If I could incorporate a heavy winch in conjunction with the trailer/loader combo life would be ideal. you would then have the best of both CTL worlds.

It takes about 30 minutes to make the change over from forwarding trailer to winch.

I often use that snap them off approach, it saves a lot of climbing off and on the tractor and
you dont leave a piece laying that is out of reach in the cutting strip.

[saw_nut]

I will try to take some pics this week. The wood I leave is in the middle of the tree not at the bark. I am doing veneer but on veneer and sawlog it is usually just the butt piece so I will pull it trail side with the firewood piece attached and junk trailside. It is slow work but leaves a nice job. I am getting a truck load of veneer,sawlogs and 50 cords of firewood per week.  The hinge in the wood only needs to be 1/2 inch thick if you are good on the forwarder. I may need help getting the pics the right size to post here, I tried one yesterday but it was too big. I hope this helps explain things.

[SwampDonkey]

That's not too bad production for being careful. ;)

I was just in a stand of wood today where all the larger wood was scun up by past logging practices. But, it's at a point now that the polewood needs a crop tree release. It's 90 % rock sugar maple. It would be a great project for someone who owned an outdoor furnace or wanted to start a market for kitchen stovewood. It's nice flat ground to work on and this winter has been ideal for lack of snow. A tractor or ATV with a trailor would be a good setup. The owner is a big farmer, so I dought there is time to do the job. If I owned it there wouldn't be an idle day. ;D

[woodmills1]

Yes the tractor trailer combo requires carefull planning for turning, specially if I have long logs on already that always seem to hit the tree backing up just before it all starts turning.  I have a number of back in turn arounds on the main road and will tur in one of those so I am headed back out before I load.

[SwampDonkey]

These are shots of a single tree selection in a maple-beech stand. This is after 5 years and they are of the trails we cut and skidded on.  All wood was bucked treelength with directional felling. Treelength wood was slashed roadside. Tops where dispursed on site where the trees fell, they seem to be rotting away quickly. Trails were at 90 to the main road and herring boned in between trails. Harvesting was done in winter months with 3 - 6 feet of snow on the ground, depending on where you was standing. ;D



This is one of the trails that is easiest to pick out. But I swear I can't find half the trails. ;D As you can see the trees aren't all skun up either.  The key is to have straight trails, use directional felling and non of this snaking around trees to get to the one behind. Might as well face it, if ya have a machine ya need to cut a trail to do a good job.



Most trails are filling in like this one with hardwood and fir. I took the picture to show the smooth beech in the middle of the frame. I left all the ones that were not diseased and tried to get the junk out for pulp as best we could.

All I know, is we cut a mighty pile of wood in this small growth (4-10 inch) with two skidders. We never even cut 30 % of the volume. This stuff was thick. We did cut some patch clearcuts that added up to about 6 acres where there was mature poplar and fir. Alot of that poplar went for veneer in one area, then on the back of the lot it was mostly rotten. She had to go. The patch cuts were screened pretty good from view. I walked though some of them today and they are filling in well with softwood and poplar, ready for thinning in 5 or 6 more years.  We left a good crop of spruce and fir along the edges to help seed in.