Select clearing old untended forest

[ibseeker]

I'm new to all of this. The forum as well as ownership of forest land. There is a near vertical learning curve here and at times I am overwhelmed with the amount of information and options that I have. I recently purchased 20 acres in Eastern Tennessee and the forest has not be managed in 60-70 years. A couple different professionals came and walked the forest with me and their opinions were very close. The Virginia pine, hemlock and poorly developed tulip poplar need to be cut. Fortunately, the pine and hemlock are mostly in groves with few other species intermingled. I've gotten a fair number of people to come and look, offer opinions and help with whatever they can do. The loggers in the area don't seem too interested in working the timber. However, one local logger said he will remove the pine and hemlock and take whatever poplar that is convenient. The local State Forester recommended this logger and that helps from a reference standpoint. The logger will have to cut in some roads and build a landing. The landing will be in an area that I want to cut a pond into later. I understand that there will be some destruction around the work areas but I don't see many other options. I've learned that 20 acres is a very large area and too much for one guy to work without equipment. By the way, I live in San Diego and will only work the property 2 weeks in the fall and two weeks in the spring. It will be 8-10 years before I can devote more time, $$ & energy. My goal is to manage and improve the timber until then. My current plan is to plant Eastern White Pine where the Virg pine was, add high quality Black Walnut and Black Cherry cultivars in small stands and as time permits, clear areas and add Red & White Oak.

Here's the questions:
After the logger finishes and I've cleared up the remains as best I can, is it advisable to fence off an acre or two and turn goats loose?
I'd like to clear up the poison oak, sawbriar and just knock down the dense ground cover. I've not read anything about using goats for this and I suspect there's reason.

Any suggestions for which species of trees to plant? I'd like to stick with native species.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[fishman]

can't help on the forestry issues,but if you aren't close ,at the price of goats now, they won't be there long, before someone loads em up and hauls em to the nearest sale barn

[Raider Bill]

IBSeaker,
Welcome!
Where in east tenn did you buy? I too have land ther near Englewood and Athens.

[Sprucegum]

Unless you already know a goatfarmer in the area who wants the pasture, you may be better off getting a  brushcutter. Or hire a brushcutting crew.

Take your time, the forest willl still be there when you get toit  ;)   8)

Welcome to the Forum

[WDH]

Welcome ibseeker.  Is your land in the mountains?

[ibseeker]

The land is in Blount County, south of Maryville, 1/2 mile or so from the bear preserve and the Smokies. It's more of the foothills leading into the Smokies. Beautiful country that supports an interesting variety of hardwoods and conifers. There is diversity in the planting sites that I believe will allow me to match the species with the growing conditions.

I have family that live very close and will tend the goats if I choose to go that way. I don't want to make it pasture just clear the low stuff. My father-in-law thinks that 3 or 4 goats might make some progress if left in a reasonable size area for 9-12 months. He's willing to feed and water them regularly and I'm willing to try this unless there's good reason not to.

When you say "brushcutter" what do you mean? I've had at it hard with a 16" Poulan and 80 hours of work this past fall and spring. From the pictures I just received, it appears that I didn't make much of a difference.

I know it's a small chainsaw, but you've got to walk before you run. I've considered renting equipment but don't have much experience running anything in a forest.

[metalspinner]

Hi, Neighbor!

That is my neighborhood. 8)  It's good to meet someone who wants to take care of their land around here. 8)

[Radar67]

My SIL runs a bear preserve in the area, wonder if it be the same one?

Stew

[Sprucegum]

A brushcutter is a heavy duty weed whacker or whipper-snipper that you can mount a sawblade on rather than a string. For underbrush its much faster and less strenuous than a chainsaw. Probably cost $300-400.

I will step back and leave the advice to those who know the area better -although not knowing anything has never stopped me from having an opinion  ;D

[WDH]

Whichever way you go, it is a lot of work.  You could take a hatchet or machete and hack and squirt herbicide in the undesirables.  That way, the undesirable plants that you want to get rid of will not sprout back.  That is what I do on my property to control unwanted species and to provide light and growing space for the crop trees that I want to grow.  Does not work for the briars and brambles, just the woody plants.

The goats will probably work on the low lying stuff.  No matter what you decide to do, you are talking about a long term proposition, or better said, a long term labor of love.  I am glad that you are going to improve your forest. 

Like MS said, it is good to see someone who cares for the land ;).

[Ron Wenrich]

When I first bought my property, I had a field that was covered in multiflora rose.  To boot, there was poison ivy and thistle.  My dad told me to get goats.  I bought 3, and the one was pregnant and gave 2 more.

They didn't even make a dent in a 2 acre pasture.  Sure, they trimmed the bushes up, but they really didn't push it back.  Then we got Casper the friendly goat.  He was there for breeding purposes.  Our herd expanded to about 12 goats, and then we started to see some results.  I expanded the pasture to about 5 acres and they started to knock the brush back.  It took about 10 years to clean it up.

Goats will not eat the things you want them to.  They'll eat enough of what you want to keep it in check.  But, they will also bark about every young tree they can find and any large tree with thin bark.  They will slough the bark off to get at the inner bark.  They use their horns or their head if they are dehorned.  This will add defect to the tree or will girdle the tree and kill it. 

I'd advise the cut and squirt.  You can do more in 2 weeks than goats can in a year.

Are the foresters recommending planting of trees?   Hardwood plantings are usually a tough way to go.  I have seen very few that are successful.  Its mainly due to the lack of cultural care that is taken after the planting.

[thecfarm]

ibseeker,welcome to the forum.Can't help you except to say you have alot of work and time in front of you.But it will be all worth it.Get a camera and take some before and after pictures.I'm trying to claim back old grown up pasture.I wish would of taken more pictures so I could see the improvement more.Won't look like you are gaining much at first,but keep at it and it will show.I slacked off some last year and I can really see how bad it looks now.I'm hard at it again and gaining it back again.

[submarinesailor]

Ib,

I would follow Ron's advise of cut and squirt, but for the cutting I would find an old Gravely model L with the 30 deck on the front.  You should be able to find a dealer a can get you the HEAVY DUTY brush blade.  I use one on a regular base and love it.  Right now the 8hp Kohler is in pieces in the back of my truck.  Hopefully it will go back together tomorrow.

Here is a quote for the Gravely web site: "The Rotary Mower can handle large lawns or high weeds and brush with ease. It is built from tough materials to handle the tough jobs. When properly cared for, the blade will slice rather than beat down the grass and weeds. Because of the all-gear drive, this unit will tackle the tough jobs that stop other mowers. (1973 Gravely sales folder."
Bruce

[MemphisLogger]

Gregg Marble is a really good Master Logger from Sequatchie, TN.

You could google him or PM me for his contact info.

[Raider Bill]

My local rental place [sweetwater, tn] has a tracked skid steer with a full width brush cutter on the front. They say it will cut up to 4". This is on my list of to rent equiptment. Weekend rate is $185 friday to Monday. I figure I can really clean up a lot of under brush in that amount of time.
MAybe you can get Metal Spinner to have a boy scout clean up there.......... :D

[metalspinner]

We can all earn the "Poison Ivy Badge." :D

[ibseeker]

Thanks for the interesting replies. This is what I'm looking for, information, comments and opinions from people who've been there before. I'm not bright enough to reinvent the wheel but I can follow good advice.

It seems like the goats aren't the best solution but might be worth trying in a small area. It figures that they won't eat what I want them to! That would be too easy. Getting rid of them won't be much of a problem if they don't work out. I mostly concerned about the damage they might cause to the trees that I'd like to keep. There are dogwoods, cherry and cedars and some wild berries that I'll have to protect.

RonW: "Are the foresters recommending planting of trees?   Hardwood plantings are usually a tough way to go.  I have seen very few that are successful.  Its mainly due to the lack of cultural care that is taken after the planting."

The Tenn. State Forester and an Arborist both seemed enthusiastic about what my plans were. They stated that it's very difficult to replace a conifer stand with hardwoods. However, no one has related that a hardwood planting is a tough way to go. By cultural care, do you mean the maintenance and care for those first 2-5 years after planting? I understand that weed/animal control is crucial. I plan on mulching properly, siting the seedlings in the best location that I can find and tending them as often as I can. I'm still undecided about the tree shelters or "Miracle Tubes". Any thoughts about those? There's no water available yet but the native species thrive with what they get. Any other suggestions?

Raider Bill: Sweetwater is pretty close if my memory serves me correctly. I like the skid steer with a brush cutter. That sounds like a great option. Along with some herbicide applied correctly.

UrbanLogger: Thanks for the lead, I'll see what google say about Gregg Marble. I'm expecting a contract to be sent to me from the Bishop's. They're a local logging family.

Any recommendations about herbicides? I've read that the Co-ops carry a generic version of Round-up but I've also read about some stronger stuff. From my experience, Round-up works well.

Sprucegum: The brushcutter will be one of my next purchases, once I've saved enough of my lunch money. Swamp Donkey wrote about them in another forum and posted pictures. Looks like a great tool but also a very physical tool to work with. Any suggestions about which one to buy? Can you rent them?

I don't want to sound like a cheerleader but I would like to acknowledge the benefits of the various forums that I've visited. In the not too distant past I wouldn't have had this resource to help me. Quite frankly, I don't know what I would have done but suspect that I would have just been fumbling in the dark and most likely doing as much damage as progress. The complexity of developing the forest and the physical challenge of meeting my goals has really sank in and I'm ready to get started...right now. However, as you all know this is not a situation that yields instant gratification. The recurrent theme from different people has been to be patient and take my time. That's difficult for me but I don't really have a choice. Distance and money are two big hurdles that I'll have to work my way around rather than just leap over them. I didn't add my wife to the list of big hurdles because I value my life! One of these days she'll see the long term value of this project. Then again, maybe she won't, either way I'm going forward.

I originally bought this property because of it's proximity to my in-laws and I wanted more land than the postage stamp lot that I have in San Diego. There's only so much surfing, fishing and golfing that a guy can do in retirement.

Thanks again for all the advice, encouragement and commiserations. I feel like I've joined a select fellowship without even knowing it.

[WDH]

IB,

Round Up is not the best choice for hack and squirt herbicide.  Garlon 4 is very good, but expensive.  Tordon 101 is what I mainly use.  Garlon 4 is not soil active, so as long as you don' splash any on a crop tree, you are OK.  Tordon is soil active, so confine it to the cuts in the plant you are treating.  I have used it for successfully for many years with no problems.  There may be some newer herbicides that will work with hack and squirt, but these are the two that I  have experience with.

[Ron Wenrich]

Up here in the Northeast, I don't know of anyone using anything but natural regeneration.  The few plantings that do go on have been on strip mines, headwater areas of the Chesapeake Bay and in abandoned fields.  Abandoned fields are getting harder to find, since they usually grow houses.

The biggest problem is that of competition.  As long as you have enough sunlight, you may have some success with plantings.  But, you're talking about opening up a hole in your forest, throwing in some seedlings, and watching them grow.  Stump sprouts often overtake those seedlings, along with any advanced regeneration.  If you have hemlock, you probably have lots of little seedlings in the understory.  Mulching is nice for your yard, but I don't know of anyone doing it at the forest level.

You are also talking about some fairly intolerant species.  That means that you'll need a pretty large clearing to help get those trees started.  Its not impossible, but it is going to need tending to.

The tubes sound like a great idea.  But, I've only seen them with maple on the Bay plantings.  When I looked inside, some of them appeared to be pretty well scalded and some to be pretty well dead.  It seemed to me that the tube should have some sort of ventilation to prevent heat buildup.  But, I could be wrong about them. 

[Sprucegum]

My brushcutter is a Husqavarna , model 323R I think. The most important feature is the shoulder harness. It takes the weight off your arms and ensures the blade cannot reach your legs no matter how you trip up.

Take note; a sawblade on a brushcutter is like a goat on a rope , the slightest moment of inattention and it will chew up the very thing you are trying to preserve.

I have mangled 3 spruce seedlings, a couple aspens, and a tire on my log arch  :(  :-\

[ibseeker]

WDH: Pardon the ignorance, but does soil active mean that it can still kill vegation through the soil? I'll check out the Garlon 4 and the Tordon 101. I've not had good success with spraying Round-up because I wasn't careful enough. I learned though and put a funnel over the spray nozzle to control the overspray. 

RonW: Your comment on the hemlock is well noted. However, the plan right now is to wait for a while (1 year?) and then remove as much of the newly sprouted Hemlocks and Virginia pine as possible and replant with Eastern White Pine seedlings. The existing Hemlock and Virg. Pine are not in large stands, 3 or 4 stands of 1 acre or smaller and that's what leads me to believe that this is possible. I've been told that there are 3 year old EWP seedlings available that should be able to compete with the natural regeneration. Do you think this is a workable plan?
The Black Walnut  and Black Cherry will also be seedlings but of a very good cultivar (proper term?) and a small plot. I should be able to tend that fairly well. Your knowledge and experience obviously far exceed mine and so I'll continue to ask questions before I proceed. If I do decide to throw caution to the wind and take my chances at least the monetary investment is not too much, probably $400 or so. In all honesty, I have an emotional investment in this plan because I think Black Walnut is such a beautiful wood and I'd like to see more of it developed. Will it work? Who knows? Until I feel like it's just a bad idea, I'll continue to pursue it. I thought the mulching wasn't realistic and you confirmed it. I'm leaning towards following the lead that SwampDonkey gave when he posted those pictures with the new sprouts coming right up through the leftover slash. 
Please continue to advise since there's much I don't know. In other words, shoot big holes in my plans if you care to.

Sprucegum; Thanks for the laugh. I can just imagine the tire....that's a move I'm well qualified to make.  I was concerned about contacting the saw blade but your explanation of the value of the shoulder harness helps. Fortunately, there isn't a whole lot that I'm concerned with preserving. I'll take your advice and move carefully around the cherry, dogwoods and cedars. I've looked up the Huskie 323R and it's not too expensive. I'm not willing to spend another week in the woods trying to mow down the understory with a chainsaw. I'm still recovering from the last time I made that mistake.

[thecfarm]

Is eastern white pine worth anything in your area?In the New England states there is a strong market for it off and on.It's hard to read the market 20-40 years down the road.Good luck.

[WDH]

Yes Ibseeker,

Soil active means that it can be taken up by roots, and the herbicide can kill plants that way.  Garlon 4 will kill if it penetrates the bark or it contacts the foliage.  In the soil, it is not toxic and will break down quickly.  It is not a threat by absorption by the roots.  Tordon, on the other hand, will kill if it penetrates the bark, contacts the foliage, or is taken in by the roots, so much care is advised when using it.  However, it is deadly as a hack and squirt herbicide on almost any species, even the hard to treat ones that many other herbicides have a hard time with.  Just don't slop it around on the ground; confine it to the cut.

I have sprayed Garlon 4 very effective as a foliar spray for understory broadleaf hardwoods.  It will only impact plants the come in direct contact with the foliar spray.  If it falls on the ground, no problem.  Not so with Tordon.  That is why it is best used in the hack and squirt method and not as a spray (unless you want to kill everything).

[Warren]

IBSeeker,

First, welcome to the forum.  Lots of good info and folks who are willing to help.

On the hack side of the equation, a good machette is pretty hard to beat for manually removing woody/pulpy brush up to 2" to 3" thick.  I brought one back from El Salvador several years ago.  Keep it behind the truck seat so it is always handy around the farm.  Obviuosly, a skidsteer set up would be better for larger areas.

My experience with goats is similar to Ron's.  They will readily eat the fresh green shoots on multiflora rose and love the prickly leaves on thistle plants.  But would not prune back the existing old growth.  I did not notice a tendency toward the tree bark.

Warren

[maple flats]

I'd suggest you look into renting a walk behind brush mower if the land is level enough. They will cut hardwoodstuff up to 2 or 2.5"" and softwood a little bigger, or most anything they can knock down, they are easily manuveured and should be easier on your body to run. I had a saw blade on a HD trimmer head but found it very tiring to use for hours on end. The is a link to see one.   http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_404003_404003    I do not necessarily reccommend this brand nor company but just for reference. These are like a self propelled walk behind mower for brush. Most rental yards around will have one and you can get a lot done in a day with one.