Hand filed over machine ground

Al_Smith · July 13, 2012, 09:48:41 PM

In interest of information I thought this might be of interest in light of another thread .Judge for yourself .

On another forum we did a little competition on building race chains .These are dog boned ,tunneled ,dovetailed bonefide go getters ,not work chains by any streatch of the imagination .

At any rate some were hand filed and some were machine ground .All 12 or 13 in the test were faster than a stock chain .Surprisingly weather machine or by hand there was only about the max of .4 seconds difference from the fastest to the slowest in cut times done from only one saw for the test .

Like I say judge for youself .In light of that is it really worth grinding chains if a person is knowledgable about filing ? My chain was about midway in time BTW .

shinnlinger · July 14, 2012, 06:47:18 AM

Good point Al,
Was there any consistently on where the machine ground chains ended up? Were they all on the slow or fast side or were they spread around in the pack?

Dave

Al_Smith · July 14, 2012, 07:08:42 AM

If I recall they were spread around .

Now remember these were for the most part square style chain .

It would be interesting to compair round filed verses round ground but I have no documentation on that .

bill m · July 14, 2012, 07:41:04 AM

I have a grinder but only use it about 2 or 3 times a year. I find that hand filing is faster and the chain will cut just as good if not better. In the real world of cutting trees and blocking firewood whether you are a logger, arborist, farmer, or homeowner etc. having a super - duper honed razor sharp micro finished machine finished chain is probably a waist of time IMO. The second you touch the chain to the wood you have taken off that super sharp leading edge that can only be seen with a microscope. For my everyday cutting I think I will stick to hand sharpening.

Al_Smith · July 14, 2012, 08:39:31 AM

Once again how anybody services their chains is an option left up the the owner .

I think a grinder is good for the occasional times a chain gets damaged such as hitting a rock,metal whatever .Given enough time just about everyone will "rock " a chain .Other than that if a person has acquired the knowledge to file a chain that would be my option .

mad murdock · July 14, 2012, 01:20:42 PM

I have worked in the woods full time with a saw, I have firewooded, and been an occasional user of a chainsaw. If one takes the time to learn the basics of proper chain sharpening with a file, you will have learned a skill that will reward you each and every time you use your saw, you will get more life out of your chains and you will save a lot of $$ over time. A grinder has its place, especially for fixing up rocked or damaged chains from trying to cut things other than wood.

Al_Smith · July 14, 2012, 02:13:31 PM

:D Thinking back on this I never filed a chain until about 1972-73 .Through just plain ignorance I simpley didn't know any better ,farmer logger type mindset .

The first saw I ever purchased and still have I let the dealer convince me there was nothing like a machine sharped chain so I let him do my chain service .

I figgured out he only got about 5 grindings out of it until he hung a new chain on it plus sold me a new spur drive .I was dumb I tell you .

I stumbled across an Oregon file guide at TSC which came with two files and the instructions and since then no grinder nor dealer has ever touched my chains or saws for that matter .Nor will a dealer ever .

tyb525 · July 14, 2012, 03:02:06 PM

I used to use a grinder I have, but once I got a Pferd file guide I will never go back. I can file a 24" bar in just a few minutes, it takes a lot longer with my grinder plus I have to take the chain off. The chain cuts better even though I still consider myself a sharpening novice.

thecfarm · July 15, 2012, 02:01:44 AM

I file by hand and have since I got my first saw,back in the early '80's. I can get my saw back to a good edge even after hitting a rock. I do good with rocks out in the woods,but am clearing a grown up pasture off. I want the stumps low as I can.The dirt and rocks are hard on both chain and bar. I've had ALOT of practice getting the chain back to cutting good. Yes,it may take 2-4 filings before I can say,I got it,but I can do it. Any other way i would have to learn all over again. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks. ;D

Ed · July 16, 2012, 01:53:44 PM

A friend has the Stihl SG grinder, its taken him a long time to get good with it. Usually it'll take 4-5 file strokes to re-shape the tooth on a ground chain to match my hand filing. Not his, 1 usually, 2 at the most.
I've never had a machine ground chain cut like his......

Ed

lumberjack48 · July 16, 2012, 04:15:11 PM

The thing with filing, if you don't know what your looking for you have no idea when the cutter is sharp. This is the first thing my father taught me is to watch the edge of the cutter, when the shinny edge was gone it was sharp. When i stopped at the pub there would always be somebody who wanted their chain filed. I quit filing, i'd tell-em buy me a beer an i'll come out an tell you how to do it. They were happy campers learning how to do it themselves. If nobody takes the time to show the pointers out, dos an don't s, it takes time to learn them.

I'm going to use a pic of a chain to show when the edge is off it. The cutter in front you can see the point of the cutter is a little blunt. The cutter in the back you can see the point isn't right to a point, an see that white or shinny edge along the top of the cutter, this has to be filed out. This cutter would take one good stroke to be razor sharp, a nice easy stroke, most want to push to hard on the file.

Cut4fun · July 16, 2012, 04:42:04 PM

Quote from: lumberjack48 on July 16, 2012, 04:15:11 PM
The thing with filing, if you don't know what your looking for you have no idea when the cutter is sharp. This is the first thing my father taught me is to watch the edge of the cutter, when the shinny edge was gone it was sharp. When i stopped at the pub there would always be somebody who wanted their chain filed. I quit filing, i'd tell-em buy me a beer an i'll come out an tell you how to do it. They were happy campers learning how to do it themselves. If nobody takes the time to show the pointers out, dos an don't s, it takes time to learn them.

I'm going to use a pic of a chain to show when the edge is off it. The cutter in front you can see the point of the cutter is a little blunt. The cutter in the back you can see the point isn't right to a point, an see that white or shinny edge along the top of the cutter, this has to be filed out. This cutter would take one good stroke to be razor sharp, a nice easy stroke, most want to push to hard on the file.

That chain you are showing is a brand new off the reel stihl PS3 that has never been sharpened. Factory sharp.

Reason I know that it is my pic and pic I was sharing of the new PS3 chain when it first came out. I had it before Ohio stihl dealers had it. :D

beenthere · July 16, 2012, 05:55:24 PM

I believe it, as factory sharp isn't as sharp as it can be. Just "good enough" sharp. ;)

Take a 10x lens to a factory chain and see how rough it is from the factory grinding wheels. Not close to "file sharp" IMO. It just wouldn't be cost effective to use a grinding wheel that fine of a grit.

tyb525 · July 16, 2012, 06:26:32 PM

I think by nature it is harder to get a sharp chain with a grinder. You would need a finer grit wheel (finer than is standard) to get a cutter as sharp as a file, but then you would sacrifice the speed at which you could grind. So I think the reason some people think a grinder sharpened chain cuts "better" is because the grinder always grinds all of the cutting edges if it is set up right. A newbie using a file may not get the angle right every time and miss some of the edge on the tooth.

So what seems like a sharper chain from a grinder is a really just a thoroughly ground chain, compared to a novice-filed chain.

Al_Smith · July 16, 2012, 06:52:28 PM

Quote from: Cut4fun on July 16, 2012, 04:42:04 PM

That chain you are showing is a brand new off the reel stihl PS3 that has never been sharpened. Factory sharp.

Reason I know that it is my pic and pic I was sharing of the new PS3 chain when it first came out. I had it before Ohio stihl dealers had it. :D

I can verify that as fact as I've been in that shop many times .On a side note I have as I type inside a factory box one 50 driver loop of that same chain dog boned and square filed which is something I doubt you could do on a grinder . ;)

Cut4fun · July 16, 2012, 07:19:55 PM

Quote from: beenthere on July 16, 2012, 05:55:24 PM
I believe it, as factory sharp isn't as sharp as it can be. Just "good enough" sharp. ;)

Take a 10x lens to a factory chain and see how rough it is from the factory grinding wheels. Not close to "file sharp" IMO. It just wouldn't be cost effective to use a grinding wheel that fine of a grit.

Factory sharp means to me, if you read my threads on chain test etc = pretty dull chain. ;) :D

T Welsh · July 16, 2012, 09:14:24 PM

I sharpen both ways on a weekly basis! By file when the chain needs a little touch up to take the shiney edge off the cutter face as lumberjack48 said. when the cutters take a rock hit, then they go right to the grinder and get cleared in a fast manner. We have 15 saws in the line up and I do not have time to play with dull chains. also each saw has a back up loop of chain that goes with the saw in the truck just in case of a rock hit. Not all our guys know how to properly sharpen a chain and for them to waste a half hour trying to sharpen a saw is just not time or cost efficient. I like to sharpen both ways ;) Tim

Al_Smith · July 16, 2012, 09:47:22 PM

I don't work around loggers but I'm very much in tune with tree service people .It's surprising the amount who can't file a chain .Some can though and are very good at it .

Bandmill Bandit · July 16, 2012, 10:07:21 PM

I Started sharpening chains in my mid teens and did a "good enough" job till I was working wit ha professional faller the winter of 1990 cutting christmas trees in november. He said he would teach me to sharpen my chain after the very first 3 inch stump I left and before I cut another tree.

We took about and hour of training time and I still cant believe how easy it was once I was taught to do it right.

I do have a dremel that I carry with me in the truck in case I hit metal in a log or hit a rock or something but I rarely use it. I dont rush when I sharpen either and i dont think it has ever taken more than 5 mintes to sharpen the chain on the 20 inch bar on my husky.

I will say that i have got good enough with the dremel that it is hard to tell the difference but it takes me longer with the dremel than the file. not much but it does take a bit more time.

HolmenTree · July 17, 2012, 12:48:07 AM

I do arborist work for a living and I can tell you I find lots of metal or rocks with my sawchain. One good example is the old hardwood with codominant stems grown into one and a stone happens to be in the middle, grown in there from days gone by.

When I rock out my chain most times only half the cutters lose their working corners on the loop, depending if it's a straight on hit or a left or right hand cutter hit.
On a 20" loop average rock damage I can spend up to 5 minutes at the stump with the file and get the chain cutting good again. I just don't file all the cutters even , they will get even again and near perfect with regular touch ups soon after as long as another rock or piece of metal is not encountered.

It's a sad state of affairs when a experienced wood cutter can't touch up or sharpen his sawchain at the worksite or stump with a hand file.

Piston · July 17, 2012, 04:53:07 AM

Since there are obviously some experienced chainsaw guys posting in this thread, I'd like to know how often you file down your depth gauge (rakers)?

Do you file them every time you sharpen the chain? Do you use a flat file?

I've been sharpening by hand since I bought my first saw maybe 4 years ago or so, and I enjoy doing it that way. I used to file the rakers down every time I sharpened but now I only do every third time or so. Most of the time I just file them down when I notice my chips starting to get smaller and smaller even when the chain is sharp.

Al_Smith · July 17, 2012, 04:57:48 AM

Not all that often ,maybe 4-5 times over the life of the chain .You can pretty much tell when it doesn't get a bite any more .

HolmenTree · July 17, 2012, 09:29:21 AM

On my 327XP Husky-22" at the moment the chain is now filed down to about half cutter size and I still haven't touched the D.G.s

thecfarm · July 17, 2012, 09:54:49 AM

That's just about how I do mine,when I think I need it. I use my 4" grinders to take them down. I just kinda guess at it. Guess right most of he time. Sometimes it gets a little "grabbie" Than I know that one did not come out right. ;) Some of the guys that cut wood for a living will file them down on a brand new chain,just so it will cut faster, and so they can give them something else to argue about.

HolmenTree · July 17, 2012, 10:21:02 AM

Quote from: thecfarm on July 17, 2012, 09:54:49 AM
Some of the guys that cut wood for a living will file them down on a brand new chain,just so it will cut faster, and so they can give them something else to argue about.

I know a few loggers who do that too, but I can say for certain they were "lazy" filers and had alot of back slope in the cutter's sideplates from not enough downwards pressure on the file, or simply just using a dull file. I have checked many when I was on the camp's safety committee.
So yes they do need to lower the D.Gs below factory settings to make the chain cut it's best.

Good example was when I field tested Oregon's prototype 72-73 LG in 1980-81, the company decided to set and stamp on the D.Gs .030, the chain cut pretty good seeing we were used to the heavier 72-73 LP.
When the LG was put on the market in 1982 they ran the .030 for about the 1st 6 months then switched them to .025, reason was kickback energy was increased and safety became an issue.