Tractor Vs. Backhoe

[treecyclers]

Gang, I'm at something of a quandary, and I'd like the group's input on the best way to proceed.
I've come into an opportunity of sorts, and need a little guidance on the best options, pros and cons, and weighing in on your experience, please.
I'm trying to decide between picking up a tractor or a backhoe, and it's puzzling, as my experience with either is limited at best.
What I want this thing to do is:
1) Move logs & lumber around
2) Loading bunks of lumber onto trailers
3) Piling slabs for later chipping/burning/sale
4) Minor skidding of logs
5) Decking logs for milling
6) light excavation
7) Land clearing
8) Grunt work - lifting the heavy stuff that I'm working on

Versatility is very important, but it's more important to have the capabilities to get things done efficiently.
I have a trailer that will haul 21K, so weight of the machine isn't much of an issue.
Your thoughts and ideas?
Superdave

[DanG]

Backhoe would be my choice.  The loader on the one I'm buying is rated to lift 5700+ pounds, while the typical farm tractor/loader is only good for about half of that.  The one item on your list that gives me pause is the log skidding part.  Be careful what backhoe you choose.  I find skidding nearly impossible with the old JD 310 that I have frequently borrowed, because it carries the hoe bucket so low in the travel position.  Now Tom and I have skidded a few logs with his Ford 555 and it does pretty well, since the hoe is mounted higher.  The Cat 416 that I'm buying also carries high.

[submarinesailor]

TX,

Have you thought about a John Deere 110.  It's a construction grade tractor with a backhoe that comes off.  When its off, you can attach 3 point hitch type tools/equipment.

Here is a link:  http://www.deere.com/en_US/ProductCatalog/GC/servlet/ProdCatProduct?pNbr=111BLV&tM=GC

Bruce

[Reddog]

1) Move logs & lumber around
2) Loading bunks of lumber onto trailers
3) Piling slabs for later chipping/burning/sale
4) Minor skidding of logs
5) Decking logs for milling
6) light excavation
7) Land clearing
8) Grunt work - lifting the heavy stuff that I'm working on

A center articulated loader will handle all of these chores better.
Much easier to maneuver and have the load end up square to what you are putting in on.
I have both a tractor and backhoe and that is my thoughts.

[Tom]

I would choose the backhoe, hands down.  Now, one thing a backhoe doesn't do very good is wander through the woods. There is just too much stuff sticking out and even though heavy, traction isn't the best because of allowances of weight dispersal for using the front end loader.  You usually don't "water" backhoe tires.

A rubber tired backhoe is easy to transport and will usually go of it's own rather than have to be trailered just because the road is paved.  Mine has worked in a 5 mile circle around the house with little or no thought given to trailering.

The front end loader will lift a huge log and you will be amazed at how convenient the hoe is for "Booming" stuff around.   You can develop a finesse' with the hoe that rivals a fountain pen.

Not only is it a muscle machine and a crane, it serves to clear land, dig stumps, level driveways, carry dirt, pull ditches, lift and carry construction tools, as well as bury dead animals.  It's least easy task is carrying a pallet of lumber because the loader doesn't move in a straight up and down line, like a fork lift.  But then, neither does most other pieces of equipment rival that fork lift type task.

My wife even uses the 555 for a wheel barrow and threatens to leave if it leaves.

The backhoe has to be the one most important and versatile piece of equipment I've ever owned.

I use a small AG tractor for 3 point hitch stuff and roaming around in the woods and swamp.  I feel the same about it for those jobs.

[T Red]

My FIL bought a JD 110, it is a wonderful machine for it's size and weight.  But looking at your list I don't think its heavy enough. 

For me nothing will take care of that list like a 12-14,000 lb back hoe.

Whether you go with a backhoe or tractor w/ loader 4 wheel drive is a real plus for loader work.

[Reddog]

Just so you understand what style I am talking about.


Way faster and easier to load and handle logs and lumber than a tractor or a backhoe. ;)
That model case weights about 13K and has a rated lift of 7K easy.
Just go look at a production mill and see what they are using.

A friend has an older case loader and uses it for some skidding, seems to work better than a backhoe does in the woods.

No where on your list was trenching, and that is about all the hoe part is really good for.

[logwalker]

12000 to 18000 lb track-hoe is the most versatile machine for the purpose. The ability to work in a 360 degree radius is unmatched by any other machine. And the blade if you have one is very useful at grading. That is why they are the most common machine on most jobsites. Backhoes can get the job done but they are primarily designed to dig trenchs and move gravel and soil and backfill. They are big and cumberson in tight places.

My money is on the Track Hoe. I tconsider backhoes to be a throwback in technology. They do travel well though.

Joe

[Reddog]

Joe, How do you load stacks of lumber and pallets with a track hoe?

[fishpharmer]

I have used both extensively.  There is not much a backhoe won't do that equal size excavator can do.  Except of course the 360 rotation.  Road travel is much faster with a backhoe, and you shouldn't put a steel track trackhoe on the pavement.  The front end loader is very handy.  I would recommend 4X4 for any circumstances, not required, just better.  If it were my money, I would buy a backhoe.  And don't think those little 110 Deere won't handle alot.  The kubota's aren't too bad either.  I would steer clear of the lesser known brands if you plan on keeping it longterm.   I really think you will be happier with a backhoe.

Go rent one of each for a day (not the same day) and see what you like best.

Edit.....
I guess me and logwalker need to read more carefully.  Hey, tractor and trackhoe are almost spelled the same. ;) 

[treecyclers]

I found a JD 710B in my price range, and, based on the specs I have seen thus far, should be ample machine for my needs.
It will even hoist bents into place when it's time to start building timberframes, assuming they're not a two story type, but even that's workable with a little FF Engineering!
Man I love this group!
TOO COOL!

[WH_Conley]

I have a 710, not a B, straight 710. Came with a gin pole that will lift to 32 feet, tip height. Not the most delicate machine to moved around, but it is a brute.

[logwalker]

Joe, How do you load stacks of lumber and pallets with a track hoe?

I Use a forklift. Much more efficient than a backhoe. I did read the topic wrong. Sorry, I will back out of this discussion. Joe

[fishpharmer]

Joe, How do you load stacks of lumber and pallets with a track hoe?

I Use a forklift. Much more efficient than a backhoe. I did read the topic wrong. Sorry, I will back out of this discussion. Joe

Me too, sorry.  I still think the backhoe would be better than the tractor for your listed uses.

[Magicman]

I have both, and the backhoe wins the race.  A most versatile machine, but you can't bushhog with it..... :D

[Ironwood]

As for timber frames you can build a stout extension off the front or back and get an extra 10-15 foot of lift.

Ironwood

[DanG]

Reddog, I agree with you that an articulated loader is superior for many of the tasks on the list, but what about excavation?  Also, what do you reckon you'd pay for a machine like you pictured?  I just paid $8500 for a good backhoe. ;D

[Reddog]

Reddog, I agree with you that an articulated loader is superior for many of the tasks on the list, but what about excavation?  Also, what do you reckon you'd pay for a machine like you pictured?  I just paid $8500 for a good backhoe. ;D

I looked at the list as being number first through last priority.
For 1 though 5 the loader would be better. Which I saw as his highest priorities.
To me trenching is for backhoes and track hoes. Excavation can be done with bulldozers or loaders and hoes.
New pricing 70K. But used W series cases and JCB's can be found for under 10K. Just takes looking like finding a Cat backhoe in the swamp. ;)

[DanG]

I hear ya Reddog, and you're right on most points.  I guess it depends on what sort of excavations you want to do.  A loader will dig a hole, but unless it's a mighty big hole, it will make a mess of it.  Just for moving logs and lumber on good terrain, I'd take a forklift any day, but we're talking versatility here and I don't think any of them will beat the TLB for that. ;)

[Hilltop366]

Had a backhoe (79 Case 580c) for 18 years sold it a few years ago, miss it real bad now it's gone, just got tired of working on it. It seemed it sat around for months sometimes with no use for it then all of a sudden something comes up and your glad to have it, however I've often said that I could spend $1000 on it any time, it was old and worn and finally the crown gear gave up and I just didn't feel like working on it any more and was not going to pay the $6000 to get the rear end rebuilt so I sold it and have been keeping an eye out for a replacement. I did get a 4x4 35hp tractor with a FEL just before I got rid of the backhoe it is a very handy thing but can't compare to the old hoe for lifting and I won't put a 3ph hoe on the tractor, I just can't get myself to do the climb out of the tractor and climb on the hoe unit dig a few feet and then back in the tractor ..... and so on (just spoiled I guess).

It would easly move a log or two by picking it up in the middle then swinging the boom to the side, it works great in that it keeps the log off the ground (clean) handy if your only moving a few, if I was moving more I would load them with the hoe in the small dump truck (O ya did I mention if you have a backhoe you will soon be eyeing up dump trucks).

The backhoe is the swiss army knife of the construction site, sure a excavator (trackhoe) can out dig it, a dozer can out push it, a loader can out lift it but none of them can do all of thoes things and drive down the road or across the yard with out tearing it all up. Good luck in your project and don't forget the repair time factor and parts supply if your getting an older one (which ever you choose)

Cheers

[Hilltop366]

There is another option that falls in the tractor line I guess, I was thinking of the unidirectional tractor with FEL... you know can be steered from both directions. I have seen them with hoe attachments that are run from the cab. A three point hitch and PTO also.

[treecyclers]

I looked at the list as being number first through last priority.

My list isn't necessarily by priority, but it is something of a compilation of my currently foreseen needs to put said machine through.
In doing a little more research, it seems that a JD 410 will hoist up 5K on the loader, at a price that's about 40% less than that 710.
I do like the added capabilities of the 710, though.
The downside is weight.
The 410 weighs in at about 13K, while the 710 weighs almost 20K.
That means that I am maxed on the trailer, and just over maxed on my F350's pulling power.
I don't anticipate pulling it often, but, if I'll be soon looking for a dump truck, I won't worry much about it.
Better to have a little more machine that I need now, than need more machine than I have and pitching fits about it and breaking my toys more often.
I can fix most anything, but it's the price of parts that hurts, and bubble gum & duct tape doesn't necessarily put a transmission back together, or a spline gear for that matter.
It is, however, possible to repair a driveshaft with baling wire, screwdrivers, duct tape, and oak 1x2's to get oneself out of the woods.

[Brucer]

I go along with Reddog.

I've been renting a Cat 910 articulated loader this season and it beats anything I've used before for sawmill work. It weighs in at about 14,000 pounds and can easily lift 7000 -8000 lb. The loader arm geometry causes the bucket/forks to tilt back slightly as it lifts, but nothing at all like a tractor loader.

If I were to buy my own (used), I'd go for an Integrated Tool Carrier, something like the Cat IT-12. It has a parallel loader arm geometry and allows a quick switchover between implements.

[Reddog]

Another option that is some what a cross between a backhoe and a articulated loader is the 4 wheel steer JCB backhoe.
They have a couple different steering options to select from. You can standard front steer, or crab steer to walk side ways or 4wheel steer which is close to articulated steering.
But it does not swing the bucket around like a true articulated machine.

[ScottAR]

Unless that's the lightest 710 on the planet, most are in the 25k-30k
weight size at least the one's I've seen are.  A heavy duty truck
(33,000gvw and up) is the one for the job. 
Unless your going real far, over 15 miles or so, just road it or call
the tractor taxi.