The Greenhorn's initial sawing season 2019-20

[Old Greenhorn]

Not a dang thing accomplished tonight. Raining steady when I got home, so I went down and rigged the tarp to shed water better. a 40' tarp can manage to hold a lot of water in strange places and I didn't rig it up yesterday. It wasn't too bad, just about 30 gallons was held up. I should figure out a way to grab that water to use for blade lube, right now I am filling jugs in the swamp and it's tough when the water gets low. In the process I discovered my rain jacket was shot and half the back was torn open. I got soaked. Checked to other stuff, looked over some scraps I might make legs out of and set them on the mill to 'dry' a bit. As I type this it is coming down in sheets out there. Hoping I get something done tomorrow night. I use the down time to think about 'whats next' and how am I going to get there. Tonight I am thinking I am going to cut that 6' slab I am working on down by 2' and make two tables out of it. I came back to the house, took a hot shower and ordered a new rain jacket. ;D

[doc henderson]

Yes sir, that is nice.  We take a lot less for granted as we get older.  

[Old Greenhorn]

Mixed bag today. I started over on the bench legs. Dragged up a fresh maple log and milled off 2 12' long 2-7/8 square posts. They were supposed to be 2-1/2 but I will figure out where I went wrong later. It took only an hour, skidding included, my time is improving. 
 I cut the posts into 16" slugs (mistake again, should have just cut a few, instead of all). Then we had dinner and I set up a drill press in my shed to clamp the slugs and run the tenon cutter down over them, that's when it got ugly. Cutter wouldn't cut right, lots of chatter and dust. I took the test slug out to the stump and whacked the corners off with a hand ax. Helped a little, then I messed around with different settings on the blades, some improvements. Lots of shaking and chatter, the slug kept slipping off center. Not happy at all. finally gave up, sat and thought about it. The maple is hard, 12% MC. I will have to take the bulk off the outside. The sander is down until I get belts (next week). I might try my little 3" drum. I really need to make a way to cut these legs easier. Right now, I am not enjoying this, so I have to find a way. I forgot my camera, so no pictures. Not much worth showing anyway. 1 step forward, 1/2 step back. arrrghhh! >:(

[doc henderson]

How big is your cutter. is it curved or more the shape of a funnel.  I plane my legs square then hit the edges with a 1/2 inch round over bit, then tenon cut the legs.  for bigger legs I may go through a sequence of gradually smaller tenon cutters.  what you did is fine, and wetter wood will cut better.  send pics when you gottum.  if you really round the end of the leg and get a purchase to hold the cutter, it goes better as well.  You in theory can get them started on a lathe if you only got the one size.  and yes for a 18 inch tall bench it takes a little scrap so I leave them a bit long.  as well, if there is a knot in the leg stock, it will bend there so I find myself cutting out the clear wood between the knots.  Finest regards sir.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, last night was a little better. I only went down to the mill to check(drain) the tarp, fill my blade lube bottles with rainwater, and collect my 1/2" drill. I worked in the shed and shop.
 I had my zen working a little better last night. I gave up on the drill press setup for now, trying to mix up the variables and track down my issues. First thing, I resurrected an old barrel sander to sand the corners of the legs off. That didn't work too well, the abrasive barrels I had were not coarse enough to take a healthy cut. Then I found a couple of old/new belts for my belt sander and managed to get a little done with that. I put a leg up in the bench vise, nice and solid and tried my battery drill. No Go, but I expected that, just wanted to try it. Hooked up the 1/2" drill and it cut but holy heck it was quite a ride. Grabbing, jumping, chattering, locking up. But now I had something that cut so I started working in on what the real issue with this tool is and what I am not understanding... yet. The tenon is UGLY and undersized. The blades on this tool do not stay where I set them, they keep pushing back, which makes the cut more aggressive and allows the tool to dance around on the tenon. Several tries at making the cutters stay showed no improvement. I re-read the instructions for the tool, no help there. I had tried different settings on the blades to help learn how the cut varies with different settings. I should mention that cutting tool geometry has been part of my working life for over 40 years, I have done cutter grinding, design, and troubleshooting as part of my living for a very long time. I have brand new hi-tech cutting tools go through my hands every work day of the week. Hence my frustrations at not being able to make this tool cut sweet. Still I am evaluating as I go and thinking it through. Why the blades are slipping is a mystery. I have figured out why the drill press idea has not worked out (yet), and I can do things to fix that to a point. The small shank on this tool cannot possibly hold this tool rigid in a machine setup, it needs other things to be right. Using it in a hand tool works better because the human body can compensate for micro-shocks and bumps better than a rigid machine.
 Still the slipping blades are a show stopper going forward, I have to resolve that before I can make progress. I cut two very ugly legs, sat down and thought for a bit and then called it a night. When I got in the house I thought to check the Lumberjack Tools website and sure enough, they have a help section which has a specific link for those with slipping blades on the home shop version of this tool (which is what I have, 1-1/2"). Turns out, the paint finish on the tool body has a very slick clear coat that causes the slippage. The fix is to sand it down. Duh. >:( I wish they had included that information with the tool. SO tonight I will fix that and see how it goes.
 It does seem that my process of whacking off the leg corners with a hand ax are helping quite a bit and my skills in that area are coming back quickly, I can 'round off' a leg in about 1/2 a minute or less. Of course my hand muscles have to grow back a bit, but that won't hurt me much.  ;D It gives me a chance to work with the hand ax I was given for my 14th birthday again. It still cuts like a dream.

 (oh, and I should put a caveat here: These Lumberjack tools appear to be good tools of good quality. Nothing I wrote here should detract from that. You will note that my effort and frustration is directed at trying to learn and deploy the tool properly. I evaluate cutting tools against a very high professional standard because it's my job and time is money. These tools are not that. They are designed for home shops. I am NOT knocking this tool, I will get it to work for me, no doubt. The problems are with me, not the tool. Don't let me dissuade you from a purchase if that is your intent. I am having fun as I learn and eventually it will all be good. My Dad always said "A poor workman always finds fault in his tools." I am not blaming the tool at all here. (You hear that Dad?)) I am however beginning to understand the handwritten note that came with the tool from the seller. "Good Luck with this, I hope you can get it to work for you." It was sold as new, but looking at the blades, I can see that it was used, just a little bit.

[btulloh]

You may want to add a drawknife to your arsenal. Good way to knock those corners down. A sharp hatchet is handy also. Together, they make a good team.

[Old Greenhorn]

Yup, I have both. I might like to get a shorter one for legs. I am getting better with the draw knife, right now I mostly use it for stripping bark.

[Old Greenhorn]

Hah! I did some more research at lunch time and found this video. This fella has the same tool and size as mine and had the exact same problem. Jump to the 8 minute mark. He did what I will do tonight and it worked for him, I expect it will work for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nesNdjuKU3s

[caveman]

OldGreenhorn, I cannot go to the spot you mentioned in the video due to listening to an extremely long ethics video while reading the FF (required for a board on which I serve).  I mention this in case the video instructs you to do what I am going to suggest.

On the aluminum, where the cutter seats, you may try scuffing it up a bit with coarse sandpaper so that the cutter will not slide quite as easy.  Also, a sharp draw knife will help you rough out your tenon so the cutter does not have as much material to remove.  I try to make my tenon as round as possible and just a tad oversized of the drill mounted tenon cutter.

I have made bench legs out of oak, cedar and Ipe.  I try to avoid cutting tenons on knots.  Cedar cuts easily.  The oak cuts relatively easy when it is green and is a little more challenging as it dries.  The Ipe, which is very hard wood, is tough on tools.  I bent one of my draw knives roughing out an Ipe leg.

 
The ones pictured are oak.  The shavings on the floor are from the drawknife and the tenon cutter.

[Old Greenhorn]

Holy cow that's a lotta legs! Yes. sanding the cutter seat is supposed to be the answer. I will know in an hour or so. ;D
 How long does it take you to do the draw knife work on a leg? I am doing maple, and it is around 12-15% MC, kind of tough going.

[btulloh]

OGH, on and ERC leg, it takes me about two minutes or less to rough out a tenon with a drawknife.  Oak or Maple could be a tad longer depending on the grain.  I try to select grain for legs that works in my favor.  A leg blank with funky grain works just fine in the stove.  A shave horse makes life much better for this kind of work.  I don't know how long it might take me if I had to use a vise or a clamp.  

I never saw a piece ipe with grain that looked cooperative.  Ipe would make a great leg, but I don't fool with it much.

It looks like caveman has sawed of the corners of those legs to create an octagon.  From there, you can get to a round leg real quick with the drawknife.  It makes for a good look - after all it's a rustic thing.

With as much practice as caveman gets with all those legs, I bet he can beat my time by a mile.   :D :D

[caveman]

Cutting the corners off on the table saw to create octagon shaped legs shortens the time a bit.  I have not timed the drawknife process but if I recall, I did all of the legs pictured in one evening. They started out as 3"x3"s and I cut 2" tenons on them.  I need to make a shaving horse before we make another batch of benches but the woodworker's vice served well and allowed me to stand.

A good, sharp hatchet and a stump could also serve well to remove excess material from the end of the leg prior to cutting the tenon.  Also, you may want to clean the tenon cutter and blades with acetone, lacquer thinner or some other solvent to ensure all of the oil has been removed. 

Another tip:  Use your forstner bit to bore a hole in a piece of wood that is the same thickness as your bench tops will be.  Ensure your tenons fit as snug as you want, mark the tenon cutter, remove the knives (cutters), apply a drop of non-permanent lock tite to the threads and reinstall the cutters to the mark.  You could even make a spacer to set the knives prior to removal after you get them producing adequate tenons then apply the lock tite.

Poston, now PostonWidehead, answered most of my questions when we started setting up to make benches.  I still have the picture of his tenon cutting table/jig but have not built one yet.

[doc henderson]

@Old Greenhorn you can try to soak a tenon in water a bit if you get a dry ol tough oak.  I do oak, maple walnut, pine and ERC.  do yourself a favor.  grab a live limb just bigger than you cutter, and see how it is supposed to work.  the shaving will come off like gandma peelin taters for mashin for chicken( @Southside   @YellowHammer )  noodles for her favorite grandson.  long big shavings.  do that for fun and to see how well it works in green wood.  then see if you may want to soak a tenon.  Your experience is also why I have graduated sizes so it is not taking such a big bite and it is already round and smooth.  I think the hatchet and drawknife will work too.  I have wet some tenon wood and the trick is not to soak over night , but too try to get enough to soften fibers just deep enough.  In the video you can see the forstner bit angle moving and this will make a crooked and poss bigger hole.  so use drill press if able.  the other trick in tenon cutting other than getting the tenon in line with the length of the leg, is to center on the tenon, so in flat stock you do not end up with a flat side.  You are on the same learning curve I experienced,  and about half way up!!! :D :D :D 8) 8) 8)

[Old Greenhorn]

OK, that zen focus and all the OOHMMING you heard coming from my shed must be paying off. Sanding the cutter seats worked as intended. The cutters stay put. I 'rounded' off a bunch of legs with the hand ax and went at them. I did about 7 and the blades did not move. I rechecked the MC on these and they are about 30%, so not dry. but man, that tool took a toll on my shoulders. 
 Here is a lousy shot of where I have the cutters set. 


 

This is the pile of ugly legs. Yes, I will be 'refining' my technique. Now that I have the tool cutting I can work on improving.


 

I sanded most of them to remove MOST of the saw marks but I left some light lines to provide a rustic accent of sorts. I also smoothed out the remaining ax marks. I was nearly done when my son showed up to work on his truck. I borrowed this fancy planer he has to try it out. HOLY COW! I am in love. One pass and the wood is dead flat and smooth. It throws chip like crazy. So I re-did all the legs except 4 so that I can compare when finished. I think I am going to get me one of these. It cuts 3" wide and I did 4 sides of about 20' linear feet of 3x3's and the battery still had some in the tank. What a handy tool. It really takes a cut, also miters corners.


 

 So I finished off the evening smiling and covered in man glitter.  I had no idea it was past 10 when I came in. thought it was around 8:30, I must have been lost in the moment and becoming one with the wood. Now I need to clean up the shed, I have a couple of buckets of chips and dust. But tomorrow I will be back down to the mill and trim the top, cut it into two tables, blend the edges, and get the legs on. Progress is being made. ;D
 Thanks again for all the help and advice so far. Next time I cut legs, they will be 2" square instead of 3". ;D

[doc henderson]

I see a little "barber pole"  so wonder if they are set a little proud, or if you are going over them several times.  I try to go as far as I need one time and done unless I go to a smaller size.  Some of the savings on the floor look like granny was peelin apples to make a pie for her favorite grandson, and that is good.  also I do not know how much $ these are, but if you also had a 2 inch, it would give you some latitude to start at 2 and go to 1.5, or stay at 2 inch for a larger 2.5 to 3 inch leg.  I have corded hand power planers and they work good for slabs and such.  Mine has a groove on the bottom so you can trim a corner at 45 °, or make a square leg into an octagon.  this would also help by making the leg more round. Are the tenons too small for your 1.5 " hole?  if so then you need to back off a little on the blade depth.  Lastly, mine are designed with a set screw and an adjustment screw, if you study the pic and you are a machinist, it might be something you could fab.  or start making your own.  My blades are sharpened using a 2 inch drum sander.
ps I was the oldest grandson and my grandma always made 6 or 8 pies for holidays.  at age 14 I could eat 2 pies in a sitting even after two full plates of food.  so she always designated 2 or 3 pies as being mine!!! good memories.

[doc henderson]

Kinda pricey to buy a dozen.  but on amazon they have a company video, and they really seem to work well.  prob soft wood with a company trained professional.

[nybhh]

I enjoyed catching up on your exploits this morning!  That video was helpful for me to wrap my head around what your up against but its pretty cool and seems like its starting to come together.  

I'm sort of half joking but you should give some thought to starting your own YouTube channel.   Knowing your personality, how many different things your into, your tenacity, coupled with the tarp adventures... a video version of this thread would be a lot of fun.  I could even be your camera man  ;)

Your thread also makes me want to move my mill back into the woods.  Thinking back on it, I'm not really sure why I set it up where I did and if I fully comprehended the amount of waste wood they produce, I'm sure I would have. Hmmmm, new project next year perhaps?

[Old Greenhorn]

 Yeah Doc, the pro-versions do have a lot of advantages in the adjustment department and I could maybe modify mine if I had my Bridgeport up and running. But if I had that running I would also have my lather running and I could just turn these and hold size within .001"  :D.
 So I will work with these and enter the next steps of learning today. I have the cutters set deep because they seem less aggressive, backing them out increases the size, but also makes a more aggressive cut. At the price, I would have to think really hard about getting a larger one just for roughing because in the long run I am not sure how many of these I will be making. It's a fun thing, but there are other things too. Time will tell.
 I figure there was a reason probably from back in childhood (Freud enters from stage left) about this 'pie thing' that keeps coming up. Some folks have a chicken thing, some Grits, you have pies. Good to know. There are worse vices. 
 @nybhh I don't know about the video thing. I mean if somebody wanted to follow me around, I guess it's a free country, but it sure would be boring. I don't move that fast. ;D I am not doing anything that hundreds of other folks here haven't already done and are MUCH better at than I and have better equipment and resources, not to mention the 'knowledge thing', which is very handy. I am just stumbling along. OTOH, yu are the second guy to say this to me in the past month. Weird.
 As for moving into the woods, remember I am there because that is the only place room is available. I can't get to it when the snow i over a foot deep and I have no power down there unless I run the screaming generator. To be sure, it is peaceful and I get almost no human visitors so I could work nekked if I wanted to (no thank you, I do not want to, nobody wants to see that, not even me ;D). The solitude allows me to think through the issues, try stupid ideas without anybody knowing, and also think about other stuff. I can focus on the music I have playing which I really enjoy, all the work of friends and musicians I know. So there is all that. Now that we have some radios, the boss can call me if I lose track of time or there is some other issue. Yes it is nice to have a little ravine I am trying to fill with junk slabs and rotten stuff right next to the mill, but it does look ugly until the color fades. It works for me, but think about some of these things before your start loading up the tractor. Now if I could get just 1 20amp 110v circuit down there, I would build a little mill office/shack/shop with a covered porch on that high spot, put in a bunk or two, a little kitchenette, a wood stove and be set. But funding for power is problematic, and solar also costs. The landowner doesn't seem to have much interest, and it is his place after all. Maybe when I build his stage he will throw in a few bucks.
 As I said in the email, I will have to try the overlapping passes with that planer. If that works, I will order one tonight, if not, I may just have to be happy borrowing my son's. ;D
 Enough typing. Time to get to work.

[Old Greenhorn]

OK, so take 2. I moved everything down to the mill workbench. Put a starting coat of tung oil on the bottoms and sides of the two benches I am trying now, after I cut the one bench into two and re-sanded a little. Then I drill the holes in the long bench and fitted the legs. I call them 'bottle jack legs' now because that is what they look like to me.  They were loose and looked too stocky. I was a little disgusted with myself. SO I threw up some planks on the mill and cut 2 12' 2x2' and cut off longer legs. Went back up to the house, put the tenons on, planed and mitered corners on them. Came back down and tried those. They look better.
Like this:


 
They fit  'LITTLE BETTER' and I glued them up with some leakage. Then I took the bottle jacks and drilled the short slab and put those in it. It looks ugly, but what the heck, it's part of the learning experience, right? ;D The glue ran out all over, then I had an idea (uh oh). SO I got a bucket of sawdust off the mill and started stuffing it down in the crack and added a little ore glue. Looks like it sealed up. I will let it dry, then flip the bench and I can fill glue from the bottom without it leaking through. I did some touch up on the first bench, but it didn't need much.
 Ugly bench legs:


 
 I could probably park a truck on that one.

When I was cleaning up, I got more visitors.


 

Actually 3 of them, we had a short chat. I might post the video. Then I went up to the neighbors house to close up his garage and ran into this guy. Geez, I hate when they surprise me.


 

 Now to change clothes and head out to the diner for an easy meal. More tomorrow, but as usual, I don't know what yet. Rain is coming.

[doc henderson]

i think the benches look great and they will get better and better. did you have to change your clothes so you could go out to eat, or because you were surprised by the snake, or both! :D :D :D

[Old Greenhorn]

i think the benches look great and they will get better and better. did you have to change your clothes so you could go out to eat, or because you were surprised by the snake, or both! :D :D :D

Well, they can't get too much worse Doc, so I guess there is only one way to go. ;D
 No I changed because A) I was covered in man glitter, and 2) my pants were not suitable for public consumption. (They need some patches in critical areas, but make fine work pants in the woods.) :-[

[doc henderson]

hey what is the brand of the chainsaw pants you like?

[Old Greenhorn]

The ones I just got are Elvex, summer weight. That's not what I was wearing today. I do look quite snappy in those.

[doc henderson]

just so you know not all my crap smells like roses, the skid steer has been needing jumped lately,  and hard to jump as well.  so i thought it would be the battery since after started it would run for hours.  i do not like having a piece of equipment that is not dependable, and especially one that may be needed in an emergency with heavy logs and such.  so my son and i set out to get to the battery so we could get a new one, or check fluid ect.  it is a remote batt. under the cab so we raised that up, but it was 12 .4 V.  so we cleaned all the muck that was there and shined up the connections and put it all back together.  the ground stud was corroded enough it was hard to get the nut off even with some blaster.  it started fine.  blew out air filter to engine and air for the cab.  glad it worked, i hate to spend hours doing something and have it not help out.  We all have our struggles,  and some are followed by little victories.

[Old Greenhorn]

Anytime you run the kind of tools and equipment we do, you have to put in the time to keep it in good running shape. My Mule has been making some warning sounds these last 2 weeks and I have been ignoring it. I need to fix that before it becomes a problem. It's all part of the price we pay to play with the really fun stuff. Rarely does anyone come around when these tasks need to be done as they are not pleasant, but you are lucky to have a partner learning some good solid troubleshooting skills as he works with you. He is a lucky kid (even if he doesn't feel like it right now). These things will pay off for him ten-fold down the line. Old Scouters know this well.
 Rain coming tomorrow, it might be a good time to service the Mule now that you mention it. :D ;D