Cutting 4x6 Timber

[Jacar]

Hope everyone had a great Christmas!  After Christmas dinner my brother-in-law and I even cut a little ERC, he needed for some trim work.

My question to you experts(I've been sawing for almost a year), is: I am sawing 2x's for building a carport/garage.  One side is going to be 2x4 framed and the other side I am going to use 4x6 poles.  The building will be 22'x23'.  Either I am going to buy treated 4x6's or cut some ERC.  

Since I have ERC I figure that is cheaper.  I assume the ERC is strong enough.  I will use truss for the roof. Should I box the heart, and how long should they dry?

Happy New Year!

Jack

[beenthere]

Jacar
""I assume the ERC is strong enough. ....  Should I box the heart, .....?


The answer to that question depends on the size of the limbs and the distances between the knot whorls on the ERC logs that you use. Very limby trees will make weak 4x6 posts. Whether they are too weak for posts in your wall, that cannot be determined without some kind of grading of each post. Seems worth a shot. : I would test them by setting each end of the post on a block and walk the length of the post, even jumping up and down on it. If it will hold 200 lbs of "jumping"  8), then it just may work for a post, assuming the post wall thickness is 6", and not 4".

[woodbeard]

a 4X6 rectangular post of red cedar may be indeed weak if there many knots, but a 4" to 6" dia.  cedar pole unmilled in any way is quite strong. when the sides (or slabs) are cut off a trunk, it loses considerable strength as a structural member, as the grain is no longer continuous top to bottom at the edges. Peeled cedar poles are very attractive. If you can find a way to incorporate them into your plans in this form, you can even use the tops of the trees you are milling and save the bigger stuff for panelling.
Good luck,
George

[Jeff]

Seems to me Bibbyman posted a picture of a barn being put up that he sawed out. Seems like he said it was cedar.

[Jacar]

Woodbeard,

I hadn't thought about using cedar poles.  It might work well.  What do you think about cutting some flat places to attach headers etc. for the trusses to rest on?  We have built some small pole sheds and nailed headers straight to the posts, but I prefer to have more surface area to attach my 2x12's.

Jack

[Bro. Noble]

We have used sawn cedar for pole buildings.  I prefer to saw them to remove the sapwood which is not decay resistant.  If you are worried about strength,  choose ones without big knots.  You might even want to go to 5X6 or 6X6.  

I would box the heart.  We use them green for pole buildings, but maybe we shouldn't.  

Noble

[woodbeard]

As long as the wood is not in ground contact, it should be fine. Do peel the bark off though, as bugs like to get under it. If you are setting them on concrete, you should put a disc of asphalt shingle material, and even one of sheet metal under the post to keep it from sucking up moisture. ERC dries quickly, and keeps its form well so using it green is not a problem. After a year or so, you can even put some sealer or varnish on it if it is exposed to the elements. Cutting flat spots into the poles should work fine, but I wouldn't remove much more than 1/4 the diameter of the pole. I am certainly not saying that square posts wouldn't work, just throwing another idea in the mix.
Good luck, and Happy new year,
George

[Bibbyman]

We square out ERC for pole barn post fairly often.  Most of the farmers have an idea of what they want based on traditional building styles or try to duplicate pre-engineered buildings.  

Two things you didn't mention are,  how tall will your walls be? and,  how far apart will the post be spaced?  Also,  I'd think your area would make a big difference.  Snow load in the north,  wind load along a cost where you may get a hurricane, etc.

The two post construction buildings we've recently sawn out using ERC both used 6"x6" posts.  One had 16' tall sidewalls and the posts were 10' apart.

For some customers, we have flattened one side of pole so to give a true surface and better nailing.  Sapwood on ERC does not hold a nail very well.

I had one registered engineer tell me the posts are more for holding a building down than holding it up.  Meaning, make sure you have them anchored in the ground well.  More buildings are blown down than fall in from load failure.

For sure, box the heart and don't worry about drying – use them right off the mill.

[Jacar]

Biibyman,

The walls will be about 8' high.  I was planning on using 4 posts in a 20' wall, but I could use more.  I live just NW of Houston, so no snow down here, but we are due a hurricane.  I could set the posts in the footing I will pour.  

Heck, I think it was reading some of your posts that I thought I should try ERC.  

Happy New Year

Jack

[ARKANSAWYER]

Jack,
  Box the heart and do not worry about the post holding up the way you are planning on building.  It is how it is connected that helps with the way it handles loads.  But do not put the post into the concrete.  It will wick up moisture and cause the concrete to crack.  If there is going to be a bottom sill plate bolt it to the concrete and put roofing tar on the bottom to seal.   We also put 3/4 pipe into the concrete that sticks up 4 inches and use boards to (like a 4x6 in your case) to align up where the center of the post will be.  Then we drill a 1 inch hole into the bottom of the post and set the post over the pipe and seal the end of the post with roofing tar.  Then we drill a 3/8 hole through one side of the post about 3 inches up and through the pipe.  Next we will put a 5/16 lag bolt in and it catches on the other side of the post that is not drilled.   ERC can be used right  off the mill and if you are planing on using it for the header stay away from knots larger then 2 inches and loose knots of any size.
ARKANSAWYER

[woodbeard]

The problem with setting wood posts in concrete is that when the wood shrinks, even a little bit, there is a gap for water to come in and collect in the bottom of the hole. You could set strap iron, bent at the bottom, in the concrete, and lag the posts to it. There are also plenty of ways to fasten posts to concrete after it cures. But heck, if the posts are just holding the roof down, why not just use cables?  :D
Then you could stuff the carport full of the holes you cut out of hollow logs, and still have room for the Dodge! :D :D :D

[Tom]

I love the cable remedy. :D

Here again, I'm showing my ignorance and will go on record as only repeating what I have heard.

Concrete and wood don't go together too good because the lime (or something) in the concrete will deteriorate wood over time and the pocket in the concrete will hold water even if filled tightly with wood.  There is no way for the water to get out.

I've seen post wrapped in tar paper and inserted in concrete to supposedly protect it, but don't trust that it works.

I've seen pressure treated post put in concrete and survive for years. My pole barn is an example.

I seem to remember that my posts are exposed under the concrete.  I put gravel under them and then poured.  I don't think the concrete filled the voids in the gravel.  I was told to do it that way, it wasn't my invention.

[Don P]

The problem with pouring a "collar" of concrete is the post will slip through it when it shrinks. The only footing will be the end of the pole on the gravel base...might be sufficient bearing might not. A footing "cookie", gravel fill and a poured "collar" is a detail for treated I've seen drawn. I like the idea of untreated kept out of the ground though. I've used strap iron bent 90 and bolted down and in before with good results. For hidden work I've done kinda like Arky's pipe but with flat stock cast into the slab (bending a hook in the slab end) and then plunge cut with the chainsaw into the end of the post to make a slot to slip over the strap(carefully!). Drill in from one side through the strap almost through the post then insert steel dowels. Plug the holes with a wood dowel. I like to cut a cross in the bottom of posts like crosshairs about 1/4x1/4 grooves for drainage...don't know how necessary it is just a trick a guy showed me. You can also nail a chunk of treated 2x6 to the bottoms.
 I have cut off porch posts sunk in slabs and replaced them, just like a fencepost, rotted at grade and just below. I've had poor luck keeping 4x6's from bowing as compared to 6x6's but haven't sawed any ERC we use black locust for posts(then cuss and pre drill). Think I would use something stronger for header stock if available.

[Jacar]

Hey,

I like all the ideas yall suggested.  When I originally poured the slab, I put 4x4 metal inserts into the concrete.  I have since decided to pour the footing next to the current slab, because I did not dig any footings for the original slab.  Don't ask why.

I think I will try Arkansawyer's suggestion or the concrete inserts, although I think Arkansawyer's suggestion may be stronger.

Arkansawyer, what do you think about using anchorseal on the ends of the 4x6's?  

Again thanks for all of the advice.

Jack

[flhtc]

I used a piece of 3 by 3 angle welded to a piece of 6 by 6 by 1/2 flat steel.  The flat steel goes into the footing to act as a deadman and the angle sticks up 12" above the floor then the angle is lag bolted to the post on 2 sides.

[LeeB]

Jacar, Where are you located "nw of houston"? I live a little north of austin, but pass through houston on my way to my real job in louisiana. LeeB

[Jacar]

I live in Tomball, NW Harris County.  It used to be country, no more.  We had a big bon fire around Thanksgiving and the local VFD came and put it out and said we could not do that anymore.   :-[ >:(

Jack

[LeeB]

was just wondering where you get your cedar from and how much$ ? There afew mills around bastrop and smithville that do cedar, but I can't get any info on a sourse for logs from them. Thanks, LeeB

[ARKANSAWYER]

Jack,
  I guess you could use anchor seal but I really like roof tar.  It stays for years.  One time I did a carport and forgot to put in the lag bolts.  About a year later it was brought to my attention.  Just to see I tried to pick up one post but the tar had glued it to the concrete.  I put in the lag bolts any way.
ARKANSAWYER

[Jacar]

Lee,

My brother-in-law who lives in Bellville knows a lady who wanted the cedar cleared off her land near Industry and New Ulm.  

Except for fence posts, we don't have many trees of any size left to cut. :(

Jack

[Lickskillet]

Jacar and LeeB,
I drove through Industry this weekend and saw a logging truckload of cedar with a Bastrop address on it. There is a lot of cedar in the area, most of which is bulldozed and burned. I have a mill in the area (Fayetteville) and plenty of cedar on my property. I am currently building a shed for my mill by anchoring 6"-8" cedar logs in cement. But after reading some of the posts here, I'm not sure I've done it the best way. It seems to have worked ok on other buildings I have on the property. I guess time will tell.

[Jacar]

Lickskillet,

Got any idea what cedar logs run out there?  I wish I had access to more.  I can't justify buying many logs though.  There is a guy w/ a mill in Industry who quoted my brother-in-law around $0.75/bdft.  I thought that was kind of high.

Jack

[Lickskillet]

Jacar
Texas Wood Products in Smithville advertises an 8' length, 6" diameter for $5.00. I don't know what that is is board feet. Other prices are at their website.

http://users2.ev1.net/~jtexwood/prices.html.

I'm still too new at this, but .50-.60 is probably more in line
 ???

[beenthere]

Might depend on the log board foot rule used. Either 2, 6, or 10 bdft in the 6", 8' logs by Doyle, Scribner, or Int'l respectively.

So the $5 would be $2.50 a bdft if Doyle, $0.83 a bdft if Scribner, or $0.50 a bdft if International?  

[LeeB]

last time I priced cedar about a year or so back they were $0.65bf doyle in smithville. Texas wood products is usaully kinda high on thier price as htey are in the siding buis and don't turn loose of too much of thier stock. really nice people though. they were running a timberking b20 last time I was there about two years ago. LeeB