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I Just Gotta Ask

Started by Fla._Deadheader, March 19, 2004, 03:02:32 PM

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Fla._Deadheader

This may have been discussed, but, I can't remember it.

  The grading of boards has been discussed, and the "terms used" have been discussed.

  I would like to know exactly what "Firsts and Seconds" really means. It is supposed to be the best grades, but, does it mean "First and Second" board removed from each quarter ??? ???

  I'm trying to figure out how the competition grades their lumber. They seem to get way more than we do. ??? ??? ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

beenthere

There is a grade 'First' and a grade 'Second', and the grades are combined into FAS. The rules say that when combined there is a required amount of Firsts that must be present, such as Poplar it is 40%, Hard Maple is 20%. Just more that is needed to know to sell (and buy).  This comes from the NHLA rules under Standard grades.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Fla._Deadheader

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ???  Firsts of WHAT  ??? ??? ???

  The comp also has a "Select", AND,
 an " FAS Select".   ??? ???
  This is Cypress and Pine, and the GRADE might be different as to wane, etc., But,  ??? ??? ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Kevin

First and Seconds relates directly to how many helpings one has..

beenthere

Sorry FL, I was assuming your were asking about hardwood grades, of which FAS usually pertains to. Cypress is included in a special section of the NHLA (Nat'l Hardwood Lumber Assoc.) rule book, but not Pine.  

I don't interpret your questions ( ??? ??? ???).  Maybe if you clarify what you are asking re: ""I would like to know exactly what "Firsts and Seconds" really means"" we could try to narrow it down.  I can't get the 'calculator' to open at this time, for some reason.

For hardwoods, there are very specific rules which spell out the grades First, Second, and Select.  They identify the cuttings of certain sizes, number, and percentage of the board surface (among other things). Are you looking for that kind of information? Hope we can help.
Where did inspectorwoody go?  

For Pine, there is a grade "Select Structural".  A different animal.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Bro. Noble

From what I understand,  FAS is used instead of two seperate grades----firsts and seconds since there is less top quality lumber now compared to years past.

In any case,  Harold,  FAS is the best grade of hardwood followed by select (or 'one face' which is similar to select but a little different),  A given company or area will use either select or one face but usually not both if I'm not mistaken.  These grades are followed by 1 common then 2 common and then 3A and 3B.  At least that's how it is bought and sold here.  Our area uses 'one face (FAS on one face and 1 Common on the other) rather than Select.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Fla._Deadheader

  A while back, I showed some defect free Cypress to a milling shop. He said, WOW, that is even better than FAS. He says Select is a better grade than FAS???

  Not trying to be a hard case, but, without trying to de-cipher the complicated rules of grading, I would like to be able to talk grades with a buyer, and have SOME idea of what I am talking about.

  I know a little about hardwood grades, but, softwood is slightly different.

  To me, defect free, no bark, no checks, no pitch pockets, no knots, is Select, meaning there is no better grade. ???

  Occasionally, a woodworker comes into the shop, and wants to hang on "Keywords". FAS is a favorite. There is no changing the discussion, FAS is IT!!! Select doesn't exist ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

beenthere

Bro noble explains the hardwood grades relationship quite well.

FL - the guy saying Select is better than FAS is smokin something, and blowing it in your face, IF talking hardwoods.  Only board better in quality than Firsts in FAS (Firsts and Seconds) in hardwoods is a description of "all clear", not Select. Nice thing about hardwoods is that the grades are very well spelled out. Now I didn't say "easy to understand", but at least they are well defined. In softwoods, sometimes the grades have weasel words like "in the opinion of the grader", which leaves some room for argument. Cypress "Select" grade is lesser quality than "FAS", same as hardwoods, although slightly different specs than the Standard grades.

Now, all that said, in the West there are some softwood grades for boards that include "Select grades" which are B & Btr-1 & 2 Clear, C select, and D select.  Don't want to confuse the issue but it fits with the description of being better than hardwood grade FAS. The rule I found in the Western Wood Lumber Grade book says order B&Btr-1&2 Clear when the ultimate in fine appearance is desired. It is the highest grade. Maybe this is where the confusion of what you are hearing is coming from. Hope this helps some, but it certainly barely scratches the surface of all the grades that are used. Practically every use of wood has a different set of grades, or so it seems.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Fla._Deadheader

That makes it a little better to understand. Between Bro. Noble and Beenthere, I believe I can see what the buyer may be talking about.   Thanks, Guys. ;)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

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