So as some of you know, I live on my family's farm in NC. We have a gentleman who is the caretaker who also lives on the property. Me being 24, and ignorant and stupid that I am, I am constantly criticized by the older gentleman(60) who always let's me know when I do things wrong. I consider the FF the largest collection of informed lumber, timber, and sawing minds on the planet. So here is the "debate" as it has occurred many times.
Having my own band mill, I have obviously used a blot of self milled lumber for projects on the farm. On some occasions I let air dry for a month before use, and sometimes green when the time frame calls for it. Whenever I do these projects, I regularly stain or poly one face of the boards for mainly color and sheen. The said old timer, tells every time that I need to seal all 4 sides of my lumber(only a few days off the mill)to prevent the board from the weather and splitting. I admit there is some truth in this preventing checking, but the main issue here it rot/the elements prevention. To me, wood needs to breathe with the seasons to maintain a long life. Sealing them completely green, seems that the current moisture in the wood would then be locked in, and rot the lumber from the inside out. Is the old timer right??
I wouldn't seal it up completely. I think the wood is going to do what it wants anyway. It usually does.
To be brief, I think along your lines as well, now if the lumber is "air dried" then sealing both sides makes perfect sense. If the lumber is only partial air dried, then sealing one side works. I'm not a pro, but have sawn for several, they only seal the exposed side after construction. All of which is green SYP siding, or oak. There's lots to learn from ole timers, and some of the lessons learned are to pick the battles worth fighting. You both have valid points, david
My Dad is 87 and farms everyday....so if 60 is an 'Ol Timer, what does that make him? say_what
60 ain't old! :)
The biggest problem I see with that is uneven drying. The wood would tend to cup towards the unsealed face as it is drying faster
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 10, 2013, 09:15:13 PM
My Dad is 87 and farms everyday....so if 60 is an 'Ol Timer, what does that make him? say_what
60 ain't old! :)
[/quote
AMEN.....
Bob..... smiley_old_guy
In comparison to me he has nearly 40 years on me. I just wanted to hear a few opinions from those who make more than a couple cookie end tables every 5 years. I am young and have very much to learn, everyday is a constant reminder of how little I have figured out. A person though can only take so much criticism without firing back(I normally always let it go because its just not worth it) Our "not a total old timer" is retired law enforcement of 30 years and was a previous fire chief.......I don't like to categorize folks but the majority of people in uniform have ego issues. I think his 4 marriages might be proof of that, truthfully he needs prayer not more criticism on a public forum. I apologize in advance for anyone on the forum that might be or was a person in uniform; Its only a generalization. I am aware that this is an awfully odd topic of frustration, but my wife and I really don't have much of an outlet other than each other. I respect the opinions of everyone on the forum and was just looking for some confirmation I'm not a total blitherin idiot.
Hunz, we was just poking you on the age thing. There was not a soul on here offended......we're all a family here and love and help each other.
I'm 57 and turn to young whipper snappers for help all the time. :)
I go to Hendersonville about once a year......we love it up there.
Sounds like my FIL has moved to NC. :D
Oh, I know, I have never felt any animosity for any forum member. I may seem a little fragile after that post haha, I promise I can take a little prodding! I love everyone on here. Sawdust does something to a man,............... :o I think that common denominator somehow brings everyone to the same page
If the wood has not dried and reached equilibrium, then it needs to dry, and sealing it will retard drying, and bad things will happen.
(I turn 60 next month, so I am teetering on Old Timerism).
Quote from: thecfarm on November 10, 2013, 09:47:45 PM
Sounds like my FIL has moved to NC. :D
Maybe he has.........what's his name :D just kidding
You're right, let it go, it's just not worth it.
Having achieved the "ripe old age" of 60 doesn't necessarily make anyone wise.
Sealing all sides of any lumber, green, air dried, or kiln dried isn't the best idea in my experience. Wood has to breathe, and it's going to do some moving. The best you can do is learn how to have the least movement possible, and learn how to use that likely movement to your advantage.
Take a look at a piece of furniture made of lumber. Is it sealed on all sides? Likely not. The bottom, or unexposed side is left un-sealed (it may be stained, but not sealed) to allow the wood to breath.
That's been my experience, take it for what it's worth.
Andy
Quote from: WDH on November 10, 2013, 09:51:30 PM
If the wood has not dried and reached equilibrium, then it needs to dry, and sealing it will retard drying, and bad things will happen.
(I turn 60 next month, so I am teetering on Old Timerism).
Well based on my first post, you have no need to worry about being categorized as an old timer. You still have a few months to go :D :)
OK, I take it back guys......plus, like a month ago I saw a billboard that said "60 is the new 50, but you still need to have your prostate screened annually" :D I know, one day I'll be there too!
:D Let's see. I am 70 so that makes me old enough to realize that it matters very little who is right or wrong. Do it the way you want and when it needs replacing, then just saw some more lumber.
You have a good relationship with your wife, so keep the communications open and enjoy each other. smiley_love Laugh at the old fart who apparently has failed with his communication skills three times already. laugh_at No wonder, he probably is argumentative with everyone about nit picking things and is an unhappy person.
Now, which way is actually the best for the lumber, I have no idea. Life is too short and my happiness is too important for me to worry about it. And lastly, I have absolutely no hangup about age. I am enjoying mine. :)
I know how you feel. My FIL can do anything better,quicker,easier and cheaper than any one else. He even tired to tell me how to sell my logs. This is coming from a guy that never had more than 4 trees on any land he owned and never owned more than 500 square feet of land. I did tell him to tell the fellow that gave him all the answers that I knew what to do.He also the type that if he don't do it,why would anyone do it. He thinks I'm crazy for trying to improve my land,be it digging a rock out or making a place easier to mow. As he told me once,I could find something better to do. He told me anyone under 60 is useless a few months back. Just trying to get me going. It goes on and on. But he treats everyone the same.
Uneven drying would be the lumber concern, if it is a concern. It is your project and he would do well to respect that.
Keep your patience with the "old" grump. I understand your observation about the uniform. I have worn several uniforms and understand how it does inflate the ego. Pride is a human weakness, not everyone succumbs to it. It does feel good to be proud of your accomplishments and the symbolism of a uniform. If pride gets in the way of respecting or understanding the views of others, then he has a problem (it is not the uniform).
Humans are a social animal. Enjoy your wife and I hope your shared love lasts forever! I treasure my wife as well. Four marriages is a tremendous amount of heartache...I can't imagine. :embarassed:
Prayer is a kind gesture. You are right, his need to declare you "ignorant and stupid" it is not worth a fight. It reflects poorly on him. You can certainly address it as no-one needs that type of commentary. conflict. He was a young man once....I wonder what happened?
Wow! When did I morph into an advice columnist? :D
Kderby
Quote from: hunz on November 10, 2013, 09:58:57 PM
OK, I take it back guys......plus, like a month ago I saw a billboard that said "60 is the new 50, but you still need to have your prostate screened annually" :D I know, one day I'll be there too!
Don't worry about that prostate exam, you see this is the modern age and the exam is done electronically now that why they call it a "digital exam" ;D
Quote from: thecfarm on November 10, 2013, 10:07:45 PM
I know how you feel. My FIL can do anything better,quicker,easier and cheaper than any one else. He even tired to tell me how to sell my logs. This is coming from a guy that never had more than 4 trees on any land he owned and never owned more than 500 square feet of land. I did tell him to tell the fellow that gave him all the answers that I knew what to do.He also the type that if he don't do it,why would anyone do it. He thinks I'm crazy for trying to improve my land,be it digging a rock out or making a place easier to mow. As he told me once,I could find something better to do. He told me anyone under 60 is useless a few months back. Just trying to get me going. It goes on and on. But he treats everyone the same.
Thecfarm, I am beginning to seriously think you FIL is our caretaker!
Magic man,
I couldn't agree with you more on every thing you said. I think I speak on behalf of everyone on the forum,You are man whose advice is worth listening to.
You made my day. Mistaking me for Magicman. But poor Magicman. :D
Quote from: thecfarm on November 10, 2013, 10:07:45 PM
I know how you feel. My FIL can do anything better,quicker,easier and cheaper than any one else. He even tired to tell me how to sell my logs. This is coming from a guy that never had more than 4 trees on any land he owned and never owned more than 500 square feet of land. I did tell him to tell the fellow that gave him all the answers that I knew what to do.He also the type that if he don't do it,why would anyone do it. He thinks I'm crazy for trying to improve my land,be it digging a rock out or making a place easier to mow. As he told me once,I could find something better to do. He told me anyone under 60 is useless a few months back. Just trying to get me going. It goes on and on. But he treats everyone the same.
I just read your post to my wife, and halfway through it we were both crying we were laughing so hard. Serious as a heart attack. This fella sounds literally EXACTLY like your FIL. From the never owning a house in his entire life ( he's always rented per him). He is a wood expert despite him never doing anything his whole life related to it other than busting firewood.
The reason for the whole post was for some comments he made to me tonight. My wife ad I operate a wedding venue. The inside of the barn where the receptions take place is currently ground up tire rubber(previously a horse training arena). The plan is to put down a wood floor. Some brides turn up their noses at borderline dirt floor.....I don't blame them. So for the last few months the plan has been to put down the floor in November. He thought it was a terrible idea, and has let me know on many occasions that I am wasting my time.
I have started pushing the ground tire rubber up with the skidsteer to get to the bare ground. Tonight he asked me what I was going to do with it and why I was moving it because it was"$14,000" a dumo truck load which I doubt. Funny enough he owns nothing on the farm including his house.
This is neither here no there, but just thought you would get a kick out of the resemblances.
Quote from: thecfarm on November 10, 2013, 10:17:00 PM
You made my day. Mistaking me for Magicman. But poor Magicman. :D
I just tried to throw a comment his way and yours, with your post haha. This dern phone
Quote from: thecfarm on November 10, 2013, 10:17:00 PMYou made my day. Mistaking me for Magicman. But poor Magicman. :D
laugh_at Ok, I apologize before I say this Ray, but now you eat grits. :D :D
I do want to say this,I will take all of Magicman,but leave the food part out of it. :D
MY FIL is a very smart man. He can fix anything,be it run on gas,diesel,electricity,whatever. But if he don't know something,he has to act like he does from what he has heard from others,even if it's not true. Than if he thinks he is right on something and I have a diffeant way than he does it,he will go around and ask everyone he meets about his way is the only way. Than come back to me,to say I'm not doing it right because he found someone that agrees with him. I find myself saying ,yep,alot now. Kinda like a yes dear. It's so much easier that way. Or I just tell the wife,time to go home. :D
I can neither confirm nor deny that your a blithering idiot...Though I can say that I moved on from blithering idiocy some time ago and am now well into into late onset mental retardation; and frequently reaching toward complete stoopidity. ;) :D
About Staining the wood on one side only. Rule of thumb is to treat all sides equally or none at all. Some wood (i.e., hickory and elm) will behave badly when treated unevenly. some other woods (i.e., cedar, maple, walnut) do OK. It really depends on your application. B and B siding and other outdoor applications it may not be very important. Furniture? very important. Drawer boxes are either finished all sides or none at all. Solid wood casegoods same thing. every old piece of solid wood furniture that was finished on the outside only shows some degree of warping and splitting. The exception are the veneered pieces that can be finished on outside only with no ill effects.
I try to never correct my elders, even though they are sometimes dead wrong. In your case,I'd thank him for his helpful advice and continue doing as I please.
as a side note, my neighbor was a lot like your caretaker. He would come over about every other day and criticize me for about an hour and go back home...like taking his medicine. The difference was, he was almost always right. It got so I dreaded his truck pulling up, knowing in a few moments that I'd be learning of something else I was doing wrong. a couple years ago he stopped coming by. I learned a few days later that he had dropped dead of a heart attack. his son found him in his truck, still parked in the driveway. Turns out I really miss his visits. Often I'll be doing something and smiling to myself, think what an earful I'd be getting if Larry were here visiting with me.
I will glady eat some grits for Ray, Magic. Thems good eats :laugh:
hunz,
Your caretaker may very well be a pompus, egotistical, know-it-all (who may actually know what he is talking about) and the reader would likely accept your description of him but when you insult marital status, retirement, public safety career, age and woodworking skills you stomp on a lot of toes. smiley_annoyed01
If you realized in the same post that you were generalizing in your insults, it might have been better to use the delete key rather than apologizing. Then only the know-it-alls would be offended. smiley_peace
How about try some boards his way and some your way and see what happens?
I can't bring much to the table on being old as I'm only in my fourties but the other part of the post I will give my opinion. If you are looking at farm buildings then look at what has worked in the past. There are a lot more old barns around that do not have protection then do. These have been standing for over a hundred years and still useable. On the otherside I have seen a lot of newer construction that needed to be tourn down because they where not alouded to breath. The moisture just roted them away.
Quote from: Kcwoodbutcher on November 10, 2013, 09:20:13 PM
The biggest problem I see with that is uneven drying. The wood would tend to cup towards the unsealed face as it is drying faster
^^^ This. If it were me, I would not seal the lumber until it had the opportunity to completely dry. I would install it as siding, etc, just not stain/seal it for several months.
Your climate is a lot warmer and more humid than ours but up here it is a rule that if you want wood to last don't seal it.
I have seen perfectly sound unsealed log walls that had been weathered for over 300 years. I have seen 30 years old sealed log walls that were crumbling because of rot from the inside. I have seen wooden boats that have been treated with pine tar and linseed oil and still after 50 years of use they are sound enough to be worth the effort to repair. I have seen 20 years old perfectly well maintained varnished boats that weren't even sound enough to burn.
My conclusion is that I always either use finishes that allow the wood to breathe or no finish at all. Others (like soma mayos paint manufacturers) do disagree but I think that I am right until proven wrong. I am 32 so I am only halfways to become an "oldtimer" so I have yet to see it I was wrong.
put er green, let er dry then seal it. it just peavs me when "old" people think they are right just because their old. ;) i can say this cuz my 75 yr old dad is that way. :) last week he had me steaming to the point i told him he has become a bully! saying and doing what ever just cause he "can". come on man! :D
Hunz----Your due to have an important operation---let me explain----I was 25 when I started to work with my father and grandfather in the retail lumber and contracting business. It was only a year later when I fully realized that if this was to continue on I needed an operation. I had a clear unobstructed tube inserted between my ears---in one ear and out the other without even bothering me . It worked really great for a long time. I have since had it removed and given to my SIL and it is working for him too----lol lol B uck up and when the advise starts to flow just sniff and ask hi m if he has had a shower lately and walk off---it does work. I did retain some of the advice and am so glad I did-----now . 60 is a bit young to be giving out such valuable advice and of course it is free and we all know what free advice is worth. Anyone over 70 is the age to be giving out such valuable advice---witness Red Oaks' father lol lol lol Have a good time and enjoy , too soon gone
Gentlemen:
Thanks for all the humor and comments, as it made for interesting reading.
Have you ever noticed that when you paint the inside of a wooden garage door that the paint on the outside peels or flakes off?
As far as IL's is concerned I never met mine so I can't comment.
When you are called "ignorant and stupid" or other descriptive adjectives sometimes even though it hurts the best thing to say is thanks.
Some people just need to get their crystal balls calibreted. Gerald
Magicman had some good points, I don't know about this "old" age stuff, it's been said that with old age comes wisdom, I just turned 72 and wisdom hasn't shown up yet. I've been wearing a police uniform since 1972, 25 years full time and since 97 part time. learned a lot, some of which I didn't want to know, but still not that much wiser. I didn't find the police officer remarks offensive,I've seen to many they would fit, (some with 3 & 4 marriages). The profession is rough on personal relationships. the prayer helps (everything).
True story. Back in the summer three of us young bucks were talking about the recent shenanigans of one of the local old timers. He had taken a buddy and couple of ladies on a double date in his Hummer.
The young bucks were me (64), Allan (76), and John (80). We all own our own businesses and are all going strong.
The old timer was Cooky (97). He's retired and has time to go cruising in the Hummer of his. Sets a fine example for the rest of us. ;D
:D Well about age as I told my son of 27 going on12 ,
1) from 1 yr to 30 you are a KID
2) from 31 yr to 50 you are a adult
3) from 51 yr to 60 you are a senior
4) from 61 yr to 90 you are able to sing the song " I've been everywhere"
:snowball: Merry Christmas & a :new_year:
and 'sonny' "I still look at the world through a windshield" as i'm driving down the highway in the tractor-trailer with a CLASS 1 that no one will take from me being a drunk driver.And for fun in the summer I fire up my motorcycle that is QUIET as the wind going places that I love to see.And also I do own a band mill also circle-mill and I still work them both as I need them to make lumber.So I'll never forget when I had a friend mouth off to a senior while sitting on a horse's back,a split later he found that EXPERIENCE taught him to say "sorry sir".And from then on when my elders spoke I just listen and obey.But now a days that is forgotten word called "respect".
I told him that I wouldn't do what my grandfather wouldn't do.It makes you think before I open my mouth to speak.So I think what my elders would say and listen. move_it cause experience is spoke from smiley_old_guy ..
cause one you'll day see him looking at you in the mirror wheeliechair. So when a elder spoke, he was there before :D So no offence to anyone cause I know that you don't speak the truth no more.Cause ALL I HEAR TODAY is, everywhere you go every one cried 'PREJUDICE',racial slander crap to me that is the cowards way of life.So as the song goes 'the road goes on'. smiley_horserider
From the way you write, you sound like a person who has some sense and who knows you have alot to learn. That is admirable at 27. You don't see it often these days, as there is a huge lacking of respect like one other person has said. I have dealt with these type of people as has everyone. Your description sounds exacltly like the type of people who have been that way towards me at one time or another. I have and always will respect any elder that I am around, but let me tell you I have found some that I consider elders, 10 to 15 years older than I, to be some down right scum bags. Just because one is an elder does not mean they are a good person by any means. I will always respect what they say and keep my mouth shut until I find that they are not a good PERSON. If they are worthy of respect then I would give it to them and bend over backwards for them, they may not know how to get their point across. However if you do not find them worthy, then I would do the boards how you think correct as long as you have truly researched it, like it sounds like you are doing. I would try and stay away from him as much as possible. When the time comes, you will deal with him the way it needs to be dealt with and you will live with the consequences, so remember to be respectful when it happens hahaha. I am looking at a table my Grandmother had that is probably 100 years old and it has no sealer on it but it is inside and in good shape. Hopefully not a rant here but it sounded as though you were looking for 2 pieces of advice and this is just my very small, honest opinion. Good luck with the relationship and life is very short so enjoy as much of it as you can.
LaneC,
Thank you for your post, there is much wisdom in what you said. About a week ago today, the caretaker was notified by my father that he needed to be moved out by the end of February. I don't know why I still find it incredible when God answers prayers. Our caretaker made a bad move towards my uncle(50% farm owner) which became the straw that broke the camel's back. I am glad that the Lord closed this 8 year door of frustration, and can't wait to try out some of my own ideas for a change!
Thanks guys
Sometimes we have to try our (great) ideas to make sure they will not work. :D
thecfarm, that is one of the best sayings I have ever heard. I would put that in the old sayings catagory so people can see it. That is a good one. Did you make it up?
I have never had a debate with an Old Timer........I can't win.
Yes,I made it up. From doing it myself. ;D
To answer the original question of sealing wood on all sides here is this old timers thoughts.
There are reasons to seal the wood and reasons not, all being a trade off in some way. Pine being a high carbohydrate wood will completely disintegrate if sealed green. The bacteria inside will have a warm moist protected environment to eat the rings out. The problem is that they will try to do that on the inside anyhow.
Air drying has mixed result if you dry long enough the bacteria dies and the wood last. The problem is bacteria in wood is resilient so you have to get pretty dry for it to work
This is why at the end of a dry kiln schedule the wood is brought to a higher temp 150 of so to kill all.
What I have decided as the best course for me is never in my area (TN) use a high carbohydrate wood on the out side. As far as sealing I want an Oil Stain (I will take the high wood and not use burnt motor oil on the bottom 18 inches because everybody knows that is a no no even when I mix 50/50 transmission oil then use trans up top. No I would use the over the counter wood barn oil stain that soaks in also as good and transmission fluid. Then the heat cold cycle will push the oil though the wood basically as a wick. Being formulated somewhat like trans oil to be hydroscopic to water so there isn't damage to a trans in water staying together the sap and oil will mix. The oil being incompatible to bacteria life do to the PH and such wood last.
Coating the inside has uses but there is an up side and a down. Between joints is never air tight and is a good place to catch water and food which can rot. I am normally in a hurry and don't address this but have lived long enough to see damage in places I could have prevented. This is actually in my opinion getting worse do to people deleting over hands on non metal buildings. In my opinion it is fine to not have an overhang in a metal building but wrong if the sides are wood. I am replacing Chestnut window seals in my house not from rot but from 100 years of rain percolating the wood until it isn't sound any more.
Maybe this will help.
Hello everyone, what an intresting thread! Human nature at it best, or could be. Many side topic's have cropped up and there's a message in all of them, it
would take a book with a chapter on each,not today I am to old to write a book
How about a compromise? My Dad who was older than me used to say " take everthing with a grain of Salt. I'll be 87 on my next birthday, this I have learned, there's a whole lot more out that I don't know than I ever learned.
Acording to the Bible there is nothing new under the Sun! Wrong, just the
thermology is overwellming. Every time it is read it reveals more mysteries &
knowledge and knowledge leads to wisdom. You can never get to much wisdom, just be careful how you display it! "Merry Christmas to all"
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28428/DSC01737.JPG)
Boards on this barn where put up green, according to my dad.(about 50 yrs. ago) They where painted on one side. Still in good shape.
When I was in my 20's I met an "old timer" who was at that time about 40 or so and whenever we had to work together he would start out by saying "If you don't mind learnin something". He knew EVERYTHING!
Something I was told once.
An average man knows an average amount.
A wise man understands himself to know very little.
A fool knows DanG near everything.
Want to prove that? Then just ask a fool a question. He will always have an answer.
Quote from: nomad on December 13, 2013, 06:52:20 PM
Something I was told once.
An average man knows an average amount.
A wise man understands himself to know very little.
A fool know DanG near everything.
Want to prove that? Then just ask a fool a question. He will always have an answer.
Yes in deed. I know a few who DanG near know everything.
And once you already know it all you can't get any smarter .scouter Joe