iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Auxilary Support Equipment?

Started by Mobilesawyer, August 31, 2007, 12:17:16 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mobilesawyer

Hi guys:

I have been in lurk mode for quite a while and thought I would pop up with a question.

I find myself trying to speed the process of cutting logs to lumber with my Peterson WPF 8". A sawyer friend of mine (and I believe I have heard the same expression here) said "if the saw is not in the log you are not making money" this had me thinking about the percentage of my milling time where the saw was actually in the log. I can't in fact give an accurate percentage across the board because a number of variables but it is about half of the time that I am in the process of sawing.

Ok I sez, what am I doing during the other half?
1 - loading logs onto the mill and adjusting for taper on two axis - 25%
2 - processing the slab into 30" (approx.) pieces for use in our outdoor wood furnace - 15%
3 - handling lumber and slab off the mill - 10%
There are of course other aspects of the operation from maintenance and fueling to sharpening and so on but these are musts that probably could be streamlined with some thought but not that much.

So I would like to invest some time and maybe even a little bit of money into the above areas in order of time delay.

Presently I am rolling my logs across a log railway over the rails of my mill (this is all happening at near ground level) and onto a set of steel bunks with aluminum dogs. The dogs are first pounded into the log at the large diameter end and a measurement is then taken from the core of the log to the floor (I am working inside a 40 x 50 foot Coverall building on a concrete floor). I then compare that measurement with the small diameter end and adjust before dogging. Then I adjust for centre of the log to the outside rail so that they are parallel. Start mill and begin cutting.
For this part of the process I would like to move the logs from the staging area to the mill with some sort of infeed deck and a log deck to align and dog the logs, as an added bonus this would take a lot of the back breaking stuff out of the job. Is anyone using the log squaring and turning deck from Mighty Mite? I also understand that Woodmizer has a stand alone log deck?
I would also like to make this system adaptable to other mills should I move from the swing blade style mill to a twin blade system (MD or Mighty Mite).

As for the slab we move it off the mill by hand to a waiting utility trailer and stack it leaning off the end and after a couple of logs have been cut it is cross cut using a chain saw. When the trailer is full we stack the now firewood next to the furnace.

Finally our lumber is often stacked right onto a waiting pickup and delivered at the end of the day. That is lately because I have been cutting primarily for a barn reno we are in the middle of at home. At other times I have to handle stacking and stickering of 2" hemlock for use as fencing and horse barn stalls and inside siding or 8"x8" pine beams for timber framing with the rest of the log cut into 1" stock for siding.
I would appreciate hearing how forum members have tackled similar problems, how you manage your finished products for delivery or as inventory, equipment you have bought and or built to solve these issues and preference ie. electric motors over hydraulic, generating electricity over using grid power (3ph.being an issue), electric mills over internal combustion.

Pictures are always cool.


beenthere

mobilesawyer
Do you have a guesstimate of what your time is worth, so you can figure out what you can invest to shave the % numbers you have listed?  What would it be worth to cut the loading time down to 10% ?
..or the slab processing to 5% ?
..handling slab/lumber to 5% ?

Certainly some interesting things to think about. Rollers to move things around, and gravity to slide things into piles, and equipment to speed up the manual lifting of individual pieces seem like some of the things that come to mind.

I sometimes think starting with the raw material high, then letting the sawn pieces drop to a lower level at each succeeding processing step would be something to save energy and time. Less lifting and it gets stuff out of the way of the business at hand. (somewhat like sawdust dropping to the ground and hopefully out of the way).

There have been several posts on the forum of innovative ways to get slabs and lumber/cants out of the way.

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

When cutting smaller logs  in the 20" to 14" range, I decided to
standardize my "dogging" if you will.  Three logs at the time!

I have a pair of wooden bunks - 8"X8" and about 7' long.   One bunk is set at about
rail height and the other is an inch or two low (or higher, if you like).   There are three
pairs of notches cut in the bunks.  In other words, each bunk has three notches -
square cornered, not V-shaped.    I spaced them so that I can roll a 20-24" larger log to
the far right, then two smaller logs into the other pairs of notches.    No dogs, just slam 'em
with a sledge hammer to seat them.   Of course the butt ends of the logs are turned
so that the taper is approximately accomodated by the differing height of the bunks.
Obviously, the logs butt ends must go toward the same end of the track, always.

No fussing, just roll three in, slam 'em down and saw!   Of course, you can also decide
to keep your pith horizontally centered, or shift to cut parallel with the bark, but it is
done for that group of logs.

I proceed to cut the group as if it is one log.   I have done some high production jobs of
many thousands of ft. this way.   It seemed the only practical way to get it moving.  Does
it sacrifice fine tuning? maybe a little, but for what you are cutting, its works great.  If the
edges of the notches lose their crispness, you can trim out and fasten a hardwood strip
at the edge of the notch to "rebuild it."

Phil L.                                  Some more thoughts, but no time now.  Gotta go.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Ron Wenrich

I can give you some perspective of how things are done on a circle mill, and maybe some of that technology can be put to use in your situation.

Most circle mills have some sort of log deck.  When I run a hand mill, we used some peeled hickory poles for our deck.  Most logs you could roll out, but the occasional one had to be slid.  We just painted some diesel on the poles to make them slippy and push the log.  Low tech, and low cost.

The other thing you can do is put in a used chain style log deck.  You could lay them flat on the ground, if needed.  They run off of hydraulic, but you might be able to set it up with electric.  Then, you would load your deck up and pull the logs to your mill.  You could do without the stop and loader system, and simply let it roll onto your mill skids.

Circle mills use tapers to adjust the log on the carriage.  Ours come from the sides of the headblocks.  You might be able to use some sort of hydraulics to raise one of your mill skids.  That would act like our tapers.

As for dogging, we use hydraulics to dog our logs.  Quick and easy, and you should be able to adapt to that. 

Centering the log could be done with a log deck style of chain on for each mill skid.  If they run independent, then you could easily center it. 

As for lumber handling, our mills always deliver a piece of lumber at the same height after each cut.  Using dead rolls is fairly easy, if the height is workable.  Down on the floor doesn't quite fit the bill.

However, you could drag all your boards and your slabs to a green chain.  From there, you would have to use some sort of chained deck to bring it from floor level working level.  These usually have some sort of arm on the chain.  They work well if all is timed right. 

From there, you could go to a green chain.  Fill the chain up, then you can easily sort, sticker and stack all your production in a short period of time.  Take the lumber to the right pile.  Take the slabs right off the end.

It all depends on how much money you can afford to throw at it and how much you want to tinker. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Noticing that your handle includes, "Mobile"  I couldn't help but see
that what you are doing is going stationary.

That's two different worlds.   

Are you going to give up the portable milling side?

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Mobilesawyer

Hey Guys:

Thanks for responding.
Beenthere :
Dude cutting the loading time to ten percent would be great and as long as the equipment has a good serviceable life I think a three year return would be great. Soo I guess that would be an investment of what 6 or 7K?
Ron:
You got it, ya that's what I want any suggestions about equipment sources and maybe some do's and don'ts?
Phil:
Mobile Sawyer, well it seemed like a good idea at the time and the handle was catchy but being the entertainment for Saturday afternoon beerfests got old quick.
I still can do on site work but prefer working indoors where it is cool in summer and at least out of the wind in the winter (no snow either).


Haytrader

 
Or somthing like it. With forks, of course, and a grapple works nice too.
Lots of guys have fork lifts or a skid steer.
Haytrader

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Now that I have my skidsteer resurrected (it had been sitting up
for two years!),  I have one good intention which will help in the
wood handling department:  "Sub-packs"

The idea is to handle wood either to be immediately sold/delivered
dead stacked in liftable packs or to immediately sticker it in liftable packs:
For example,  my little Bobcat will only lift 1200 lbs or so.    A stickered
pile, then should be only that weight and have extra  lift point stickers, and
should be banded tight for transfer by the skidsteer forks, and the pack
should have a set of 3"X3" spacer stickers on top of that Sub-pack.  These
spacers may be strapped to the pack or not.  The straps have to be non-metallic.

If the wood is to be dead-stacked, then it has to be in packs that the skidsteer
can lift, also, and needs spacers.

The point of this is LESS HANDLING.

P.S.  In keeping with Ron's thoughts...

If you raised your log rails, and put a platform which raised your entire sawing
system up, you could take advantage of gravity and ergonomics for the lumber
handling.   In other words, you could build up a staged area across the end of
your shed, then drift downward as beenthere suggests, using slide rails and dead
rolls.

In contrast, the total man power, financial investment, and sawing productivity
which would be required to come up to the level  of a full green chain set-up
seems like a long, long way from where you are at.   But we can all take baby
steps, huh?  Don't get me wrong, now:  I try to visualize and feed on every point
Ron makes.  In my world, however, I have to match it into what is practical for
me to adapt at the time.  (And don't we all?!)

Phil L.

Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Ron Wenrich

One of the problems I see with swing mills is that you are working on the ground and you are always bending over to pick up your lumber so you can stack it.  It makes for a real long day.

If you're planning to stay stationary, why not raise the area where you're cutting so that the lumber comes off at a more workable height?  You could raise your mill skids up to a height of 3 feet.  That would allow all of your lumber to come off at a height of 3-5', considering that you probably aren't sawing logs any bigger than 24" in your mill. 

By raising your mill, you would then have an area for sawdust to fall down into.  If you put a metal grate type of floor down, then all the sawdust could fall down through the grates.  Taking it one step further, you can put walls on the side to funnel your dust into conveyor of some type.  Dust drags are easy to build and cheap to run.  That would practically eliminate the sawdust handling problem.

Your log deck would have to be raised.  It is much easier to run logs in on long skid poles.  Ours were 30' when we had a hand mill.  We put ours on log ends that were cut to improve grade.  We simply set the poles on top of them, then nailed a piece of wood so the poles wouldn't roll.  When you get your logs up off the ground, they are a lot easier to handle by hand.  You will be able to roll them without a cant hook, and when they start to run ahead at one end, you will simply slide your working end either forward or back to straighten it out.  I use to roll about 150 of them by hand in a days time with little effort, as long as they were straight and round.

I would also have the mill situated that all log ends come in at the same spot.  That way you are not wasting footsteps chasing after the board end.  I believe you have a dragback system with the swing mill.  Right?  When you drag your board back, they should all fall off when you are ready for the next cut.  You shouldn't have to pull your board or your head back any further to make boards pass the end of your mill as you saw different length of logs. 

When you can do that, then you can get into some type of green chain situation.  The boards would be coming off your mill at a workable height. Separation into different products if pretty easy when you work at a comfortable height, and the wood doesn't have to be lifted or carried from one spot to another.  Using our green chain system, one man is stacking 5-10 Mbf/day, and some days more, depending on the quality of help.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Thank You Sponsors!