Forwarder

[Matt601]

why do y'all used a forwarder? Why not just a skidder? Looks like to me a skidder would be faster. 

[mike_belben]

If you have a processor then the logs are bucked in the woods, CTL kinda dictates forwarding.  Id think a forwarder will move more sticks per gallon than a skidder on long pulls, it can replace the knuckleboom too.  And it passes the same ground far fewer times.  Some jobs will dictate no skidding.  Tree length produces more rubs on residual stand, etc etc.  

[Matt601]

Oh ok I have never seen one in MS. It looks neat. 

[Riwaka]

Some places use forwarders to move logs from the skid to a road truck loading area if the track is too muddy, steep etc to get a road truck to the skid.

Forwarders are also used for gathering biomass, after a harvest crew has been through etc.
Forwarder Tigercat 1055 Biomass - YouTube

Forwarders used to carry pipe on projects etc.

[Riwaka]

Some places use forwarders to move logs from the skid to a road truck loading area if the track is too muddy, steep etc to get a road truck to the skid.

For a mechanised crew - less operators for a feller processor working with a forwarder (2) (logs picked up by crane trucks) compared to a feller buncher with a grapple skidder hauling to a processor then a log loader putting logs on trucks (at least 4) etc.

Forwarders are also used for gathering biomass, after a harvest crew has been through etc.
Forwarder Tigercat 1055 Biomass - YouTube

Forwarders used to carry pipe on projects etc.

[teakwood]

what a neat system, the tigercat with the chipper mounted.

Where is that?

[thecfarm]

I had my land logged,with a forwarder. No skid trails. Just the wheel marks from the forwarder. I have a hobby of looking at loging jobs. I just like the looks of a job that is done with a forwarder. The skidder trails will grow up with something no matter what.  

[Skeans1]

If you have a processor then the logs are bucked in the woods, CTL kinda dictates forwarding.  Id think a forwarder will move more sticks per gallon than a skidder on long pulls, it can replace the knuckleboom too.  And it passes the same ground far fewer times.  Some jobs will dictate no skidding.  Tree length produces more rubs on residual stand, etc etc. 

You can do CTL with with a skidder it's still a lot of guys do it this way out here vs a forwarder for longer length wood. Some companies out dictate no skidders period for ground tear up even in clear cuts unless it's a bogie drive or clam bunk forwarder.

[mike_belben]

Im gonna assume lengths out your way are a lot longer than here.  10/12/16 and small diameter compared to PNW stuff is our normal sawlog so skidding those would be kinda silly.   Most loggers here are tree length skidding to a knuckleboom and bunksaw.  If its wet boy watch out, Its hard on the skid trail.  Some spots never recover from it, theyll have a 5 ft deep gully of a road forever due to runoff turning them into creeks.  Like my yard and all the ones around it.

[nativewolf]

Im gonna assume lengths out your way are a lot longer than here.  10/12/16 and small diameter compared to PNW stuff is our normal sawlog so skidding those would be kinda silly.   Most loggers here are tree length skidding to a knuckleboom and bunksaw.  If its wet boy watch out, Its hard on the skid trail.  Some spots never recover from it, theyll have a 5 ft deep gully of a road forever due to runoff turning them into creeks.  Like my yard and all the ones around it.

Yep, for this reason we've been looking very hard at forwarders and will likely buy one by June.  Even if we are hand felling we can marry that to a forwarder pretty well, we might mess up a cut or two I guess but we'll see.
I have had great advice and help from many on the forum regarding forwarders and processors (the bigger iffeee question to me).
Forwarders are more expensive than skidders though, we might pick up a stripped down old franklin and a newer 8 wheel one and use the little franklin for pre harvest harvest, thinnings, small lot clearing jobs, etc.

[TKehl]

I'm not a pro, just a part timer, but I use trailers to move logs instead of just dragging with the tractor to keep the logs cleaner and reduce impact in our own woods.  I also only move logs when I can avoid leaving ruts.

Additionally, I have several neighbors that let me cut on their place specifically because I'm low impact.  A lot of that is "primo" as they don't want "loggers" on their land.  

I realize this is a niche, but is serving me well.   ;)

[mike_belben]

A 60 inch wide 8x8 that could actually get a 40 inch butt up on it and out of the woods without leaving ruts could really keep a one man show busy.  There are so many of those monsters in the richies back 40 where wife says no logging.  Its a shame. 
  

[lopet]

what a neat system, the tigercat with the chipper mounted.

Where is that?

Pine needle chips don't even make good quality fuel unless they' re used for other purposes.
Wonder how there can be money being made by using a half of a million dollar outfit to gather some brush, chip it and dump into containers.

[Dave Shepard]

Half -million, which end of the machine is that? :D

[thecfarm]

I can make more money digging rocks. :D
Might of been an experment to see if it was worth it. There is one on here somewheres,I think it was a JD,they made bales out of slash. It was done with one machine. Yes,another one had to pick up the bales.

[mike_belben]

as far as im concerned thats one of those fake money gigs.  Something for insiders with no bid contracts.  
.

[chep]

Forwarders can and do make ruts. Just for the record. Yes they have less ground pressure then a skidder but can still weigh over 60 k loaded.
Running brush roads behind a processor yes you float. But without brush down they sink just as well.
  We spend a lot of time moving brush info wet spots, we use ground mats and corduroy all the time.
Most of the time we move 2 machines. Processor + forwarder. I laugh when I see buncher, grapples, delimber, slasher, Chipper all packed in to a landing. Seems like a lot of iron to move around and keep fed.
And a forwarder can load trucks.
It's a different system but so simple once you learn it

[woodmills1]

once you start using anything with a log loader on it you wont be moving marketable logs or firewood any other way

[Matt601]

I was thinking that a forwarder would be good to use on Government land. They have tons of small bug spots that they just cut down and let rot to stop the bugs. No one wants to cut it anymore because they so strict on getting in and out. Looks like with a forwarder you would not need a bunching yard. It might be too much sugar for a dime. I do know Government land can break you too. You buy it standing up front from what I understand and they tell you when you can cut it so if its bug timber if they let it get too far you can't sell it.   

[Skeans1]

Another option if they'd allow it would be shovel logging

[Matt601]

Another option if they'd allow it would be shovel logging

What is that? 

[Matt601]

Forwarders are more expensive than skidders though, we might pick up a stripped down old franklin and a newer 8 wheel one and use the little franklin for pre harvest harvest, thinnings, small lot clearing jobs, etc.

I was thinking about small Bug government land lots. I could move it and my truck and load with it. I hand cut everything anyway. Have a winch on it looks like you could winch a few trees together and cut them up. The only thing I was thinking was loading the saw log and pulpwood how what would work. Just make a pile of each.  

[starmac]

There is some shovel logging goes on around here, but I bet it would be a pain doing those short logs with a shovel.

[Matt601]

I just read what shovel logging is. I think I would starve to death doing that. 

[Ianab]

I just read what shovel logging is. I think I would starve to death doing that.

It only really works for small plots / short distance / larger trees. 
It's used a bit locally as there are a lot of small pine plantations on regular farmland, a few hundred pine trees planted on a steep hillside or gully. These would be larger trees, maybe 3ft dbh, but not enough to be worth hauling in all sorts of machinery.   But with just a large excavator (with a grapple) they can fix (or create) the track, move and sort the logs, load the trucks (we don't use self loaders here), and tow the truck out when it gets stuck. Logs might only need to be moved 50 yards to the landing. 
But if the logs have to be moved any serious distance, then it's not going to work. They would still bring in the excavator for all the other reasons, just the logs get moved with a skidder as that's so much more efficient over a longer distance. Excavator then stays on the landing and basically works as a mobile crane sorting / stacking and loading the logs. 

[Skeans1]

A lot of acres are shovel logged out here stuff from any size watched a company shovel log a 100 acre piece last load leave in 3 weeks that's not uncommon out here. One key to doing it is getting the right machine for the job a true shovel isn't like the old days of the excavator conversions they're a cheap efficient machine. A family friend stopped by our job yesterday they had just bought a new cat shovel a couple years back it burns less then 2 gallons an hour, a 568 was less then 4 an hour plus you have the reach.

[mike_belben]

What have they changed to make the machine get such good economy?

[BargeMonkey]

 A 200 class shovel with saw hook ups would be awesome for most of my jobs, shovels are rare here. 
 A forwarder is handy, I dont recommend a 4 wheeler unless your working flat ground, I have a 230 long bunk and she makes ruts just as back as a skidder but I come out with 2k ft, 3.5 cord at a rip. 
 

[starmac]

How long of logs will your long bunk forwarder handle.

[BargeMonkey]

17-20' isn't bad, I've had 28-30' before and your limited on loader reach and sliding the stuff off the bunks. There's nothing wrong with a 4wheeler but they are heavy and not the most stable unless your running big rubber, those are 23.1 tires and its hairy sometimes.  I'm going to buy a newer 6 wheeler once the store opens, keep her just for moving wood in my yard, unloading trailers, I bought that a few days after the hurricane, moved alot of storm debris with her and have been all thru the machine, get paint here at some point, I'm torn between the green or the original jack orange you can see coming thru in spots.

[Maine logger88]

A lot of acres are shovel logged out here stuff from any size watched a company shovel log a 100 acre piece last load leave in 3 weeks that's not uncommon out here. One key to doing it is getting the right machine for the job a true shovel isn't like the old days of the excavator conversions they're a cheap efficient machine. A family friend stopped by our job yesterday they had just bought a new cat shovel a couple years back it burns less then 2 gallons an hour, a 568 was less then 4 an hour plus you have the reach.

What is the average daily production shovel logging? 

[bushmechanic]

Barge make no wonder your not that into that old 230! If you can have 23.1/26 tires on it I can see why you don't like it. I've used them with those tires and when unloading the machine will tip out until it bottoms on the walking beam. Put the 24.5/32 tires on that same machine and you won't believe the difference, two totally different machines by just changing the tires. Trust me on this one, been there done that!

[BargeMonkey]

 It's not a pleasant feeling in rough ground with her, it's one thing to pick a back tire in a skidder, its another to do it in a loaded forwarder 🤣 when I'm unloading sawlogs you keep them close and I tend to keep my bunks near the pile for a stop 🤣 24.5 rims and tires are like hens teeth around here, I recently bought 4 rims for my 460 and have to have the centers changed. A 23.1 tire and a 24.5 are night and day, problem is she doesn't have the snot, that 353 has all it wants on flat ground, saving my money for a lower hr 546C Fabtek-564 Cat and keep her as a spare. 

[Skeans1]

Depends on the machine and operator but a lot companies here are pushing 35 to 45 loads a day.

[mike_belben]

So is it additional width thatll come from the big meats or just extra weight to lower the COG? 

What are the pluses and minuses of a 6wheeler vs an 8?

[Skeans1]

So is it additional width thatll come from the big meats or just extra weight to lower the COG?

What are the pluses and minuses of a 6wheeler vs an 8?

Width is the same, 6 is a rougher ride and won't climb like an 8 wheel one reason is the bogie can move up front second is typically tracks up front.

[Riwaka]

How long of logs will your long bunk forwarder handle.

Bell Equipment (South Africa) are custom building what they call a long range forwarder (Timber Hauler) on the articulated dump truck type chassis but with logs/ timber as the primary design purpose.
One of the larger timber haulers without a crane and extended (wheelbase)  bunk of around 32 feet (if my conversions are correct)
Buy Our Purpose Built Long Range Forwarder | Bell Equipment   (the website is not up to date)
Designed to carry logs between a processing site to a road truck loading site if the track is going to cost too much to upgrade for a relatively small amount of wood or too muddy, steep etc. the long range forwarder will do up to 30 mph so faster along the track than the traditional cutover type forwarders.  
Tigercat have the 1085C as the biggie , tending to go wider and lower with the big load.
https://www.tigercat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/C-series-Forwarders-Eng-1.9-0118-web.pdf
Tigercat Forwarder walk-around - YouTube

Fuel economy - engine upgrades, and ER - hydraulic energy recovery between the main boom and stick, dedicated slew pump tc 855 etc

[mike_belben]

Depends

If a loaded forwarder is gonna roll while im in it, i want the helmet too.  Not just a diaper. 

[Skeans1]

What have they changed to make the machine get such good economy?

Tier 4, take my 1270 it runs 3.5 max an hour with a 9 liter engine the Rottne H14 has a Deere 6.8 liter it burns 5 to 6 an hour.

[mike_belben]

Wow.

[BargeMonkey]

Depends

If a loaded forwarder is gonna roll while im in it, i want the helmet too.  Not just a diaper.

It's a whole diff ride, makes a certain part of your anatomy pucker 😂  I'm friends with an older French Canadian guy who cut millions upon millions of ft of redpine around here, at the end he had 2x 820 Timbcos but did have a couple 230s and 610s, he told me when I was looking that if it had 18.4 tires to walk away as fast I could, he told me a story about going over 3x in one day. 

[BargeMonkey]

 I'm not seeing HUGE fuel saving with the newer Tier 4 stuff, a little less but less power. Our 644H loader walks all over the 644K we have, night and day diff. I've got a 6.8 straight powertech in my timbco and it's right around 5gal an hr if your not right in the corner. 

[Skeans1]

Were the fuel savings have been seen is having an eco mode with a larger engine that's hardly working at all. Not sure about the wheel loaders but most of the logging equipment that runs at a set rpm typically has dropped fuel consumption.

[mike_belben]

My forklift has no brakes when its off.  It stalled on me at the top of a slope with a full load of logs one time and we nearly went back to the future.. It sure felt like 88, right towards a 12ft rock bluff at the bottom.  I managed to manual steer it in a lazy arc into a stump.  

There was more pucker going on than i care to discuss. 

[BargeMonkey]

 When we went on contract with ConocoPhillips no one from the office told the boat that we where limited to 200gal an hr / 4800gal per day, a pair of 16/645s ran dead rack up and down the beach will eat 52-5800 a day. The office got a bill for like 120K in fuel, 🤣 fun times. I ran a newer Tier 2 EMD-EC 8cyl turbo boat that made a true 4K hp and used less than 3k gal a day, all depends how they are set up. 
 My timbco has a straight 6.8 powertech uses 5-6gal an hr not ran hard. The newer 6.8 HD's use more and are miserable to work on. 
 The problem with fuel prices is the middle man and the taxes, its .55cents per gal for onroad diesel in NY right now, just in tax. Offroad is priced 1/2 of .01 cent higher at the rack, then the middle man steps on it .40-.60 cents before you buy it. We recently cut the middle man out. 🤣 
 
 

[Matt601]

17-20' isn't bad, I've had 28-30' before and your limited on loader reach and sliding the stuff off the bunks. There's nothing wrong with a 4wheeler but they are heavy and not the most stable unless your running big rubber, those are 23.1 tires and its hairy sometimes.  I'm going to buy a newer 6 wheeler once the store opens, keep her just for moving wood in my yard, unloading trailers, I bought that a few days after the hurricane, moved alot of storm debris with her and have been all thru the machine, get paint here at some point, I'm torn between the green or the original jack orange you can see coming thru in spots.

Saw logs is from 12 to 16 foot. Chip&saw is tree length as well as pulpwood. But I don't really load anything over 24 foot and its small when its that log. I was looking at a little Franklin 132. My truck only holds 15 to 20 tons so if i could make 2 to 3 trips with it I think it would be good. 

[BargeMonkey]

My 230 holds roughly 1/2 a tri-axle load, every 2 trips is 1 load, best way I've figured. roughly 3.5 cord per load. your better off to sort your logs in the woods and unload 1 amount on the header, it's a pain mixing 3 sorts on the bunk.

[Riwaka]

If you have wet ground best to have the sunk machine recovery equipment all organised before it happens, a few minutes quicker can save an engine, electrics - basically the machine.
John Deere 1110E stuck in mud, saving with Homemade forwarder - YouTube

[thecfarm]

Get that thing on some high ground.

[Cub]

There's not to many skidders around here. Mostly forwarders. I have a forwarder simply because we don't always have room to set up a big landing and other equipment. Plus when you cut in summer the trees get drug through dirt and mud. Really wrecks saw chain fast. So we cut to length in the woods and sort in the woods n haul it to the landing. 

[starmac]

Talking to the logger I work for this morning, and it sounds like the big logging project we are gearing up for, he is planning to shovel log, at least the biggest part of it. It sounds like he has 3 newer hitachis shovels coming.

[mike_belben]

Wow, thats a serious leap.

[starmac]

That is sort of just one of the first steps, maybe a hop, compared to the whole shebang.

[Skeans1]

It's not uncommon for a guy if the job is big enough will buy the equipment for that job either to keep after or sell depending on what's next.

[starmac]

Nope, he also bought 2 feller bunchers, and 2 processors, and is in the process of buying a log stacker.
Plus taking all his older equipment for backup.

Just transportation cost to get the man camp there, is well over 300,000, not to mention cost of the camp itself.
Several of the guys are taking campers and not even staying in the camp too.

[mike_belben]

Dang!  

Either the bank loves this guy or he is in need of some serious deductions to offset that powerball jackpot 

Good for the economy, im glad to hear it.

[starmac]

Just a life long trucker that decided to start logging a few years ago, who also has a pretty good business head and work ethic about him.