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Red Oak for Horse Stalls

Started by firefighter ontheside, August 28, 2018, 11:29:41 AM

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firefighter ontheside

Ok, forget about the ripping thing for a bit.  Another potential customer wants 8/4 red oak lumber for horse stalls.  My questions are: red oak price for green lumber and how to figure how many boards I'll get out of something like a 20" log.  This is new to me.  I've been charging hourly, but this will be me selling lumber by the bf.  It seems like I can get about 11 2x8 boardsout of a 20" log just by drawing a circle and laying out some cuts.  Does anyone have a formula to use to figure this out.  Im wanting to see how profitable this would be for me based on price per bf.
Thanks.
Woodmizer LT15
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pwrwagontom

Doesnt answer your question fully- but you should purchase a tree/log scale stick from forestry suppliers (or anywhere that sells them).  It estimates the average BF volume per log based on its end diameter and length.
I say estimates, because you can over-run.  But- great tool to start, takes some head scratching away.

Alternatively- did your Woodmizer come with a paper lumber scale slide rule?  At the very least you can practice taking tally off cut boards, to help get the feel for these things.
Never give an inch

mike_belben

Call nearby sawmills and price out the materials as if you were a buyer.  That gives you the ballpark on your region pretty quick.  
Praise The Lord

Greyhound

Quote from: firefighter ontheside on August 28, 2018, 11:29:41 AM
Ok, forget about the ripping thing for a bit.  Another potential customer wants 8/4 red oak lumber for horse stalls.  My questions are: red oak price for green lumber and how to figure how many boards I'll get out of something like a 20" log.  This is new to me.  I've been charging hourly, but this will be me selling lumber by the bf.  It seems like I can get about 11 2x8 boardsout of a 20" log just by drawing a circle and laying out some cuts.  Does anyone have a formula to use to figure this out.  Im wanting to see how profitable this would be for me based on price per bf.
Thanks.
I know "the customer is always right" but white oak would be a more rot resistant choice for a horse stalls.

firefighter ontheside

I've been using a website that has a log volume calculator that gives volumes on 3 different scales based on diameter and length.  Is that what the log scale stick does?

I will try to find a nearby mill to ask that question of.  Unfortunately the one I used to buy from went out of business.  

I asked him if he needed red oak or if I could use both red and white.  He said he usually sees other folks using red mostly.  I suspect that is because red oak is the cheaper of the two.  He has draft horses and I suspect they are pretty tough on the wood, so he's mostly interested in something strong.
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TKehl

Most horse stalls I see are in a barn and have more issues with chew and rub than rot.  Maybe outdoor stalls are common elsewhere? ??? I see a lot of horse people that treat the horses almost better than their own kids.   :)

I think you are spot on with most using Red due to price, but bet he would take mixed if not charged more.   :D
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

WV Sawmiller

   How about ash? Do you have a lot of dying ash in your area? Might be a good salvage project to use them on. As I understand it is pretty comparable to oak. I don't know which the horse will chew the worst which should be a consideration.

 From all I hear white oak is certainly the wood of choice, especially if it is out in the weather (which this sounds like it will not be).

  To answer your question I'd see what you can buy the logs for, figure up your cost for sawing and handling and then quote your customer a price that will return your expenses and a satisfactory profit. Checking with others is good but if they can sell cheaper than you can make a profit let them have to work.

 BTW - how about the side lumber? I'd think there would be a little bit of 4/4 lumber on the sides. Maybe not a lot but I'd try to save as much as I could if I had a use or market for it.

  Not sure in your area and while everyone thinks of hickory, or maybe mesquite for those out west, for smoking meat the best butcher and sausage maker I ever knew said red oak was actually better than hickory so even the slabwood might have value if you find the right market.
Howard Green
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alan gage

When I was reading up on uses of cottonwood lumber more than once I came across people saying it was a preferred wood for horse stalls because horses won't crib (eat) it.

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

firefighter ontheside

PAsh could be a possibility.  I have some ash logs, but I'd rather not use those for this.  My ash logs are really nice and I'd like to sell that as slabs.
I can keep my eye out for other ash though.  We do have a lot dying.

The stalls are indoors and I don't believe rot is an issue.  

What I've suggested is a mix of red, white, black......whatever oak I can come up with.

Thanks for all suggestions.
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ladylake

 

 I have a customer that wont use anything but red oak as it has tanic acid which keeps the horses from chewing on it, I sell low grade to him for 85 cents a bf, way better than pallet wood.  Steve
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olcowhand

I've used only (due to cost) Red Oak 1x6 for Round pen Fence Rails, Kick boards and Standing Stall walls forever. 2x8 should be stout enough for Drafts. If I'm using 1x6 for stalls, I'll put a post (or a dummy post to tie them together) every 4' O/C. I drill clearance holes and use the newfangled Torx- driven Deck Screws to attach (Nails or Screws may split the board if it's somewhat dry).
"Cribbing" isn't eating, and it results in boards that are chewed away rapidly. Fortunately, "Cribbers" (horses that have this habit- it's akin to a human that smokes, and results in harm to their health) are few and far between; the ginger taste of Red Oak may appeal to some horses, but I haven't found any horses that have chewed on or eaten my boards (maybe it's the Tanic acid Ladylake mentions, I was not aware of that fact).
I'll go through my phone pics and post a couple of my recent uses.
Note: The boards I use are reasonably priced (remember, I'm buying) in my region, and you should price this work for you to be comfortable.
"Another" Steve
Olcowhand's Workshop, LLC

They say the mind is the first to go; I'm glad it's something I don't use!

Ezekiel 36:26-27

Lawg Dawg

I'd be about $1.25 for low grade water oak lumber here...I also herd if you spray the lumber with silicone spray, the horses don't knaw it as bad ??? ::) :D



 
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nativewolf

We get 1.10-1.20/bdft for horse fence,  1x6x 16 footers.  You'll loose a bunch more lumber getting to wood that makes a 2x so I'd charge more for sure.  

Also, if they want stalls they probably want fencing.  Sell them fencing too.  As local sawyers we all have an advantage in our ability to sell green fence boards, they nail so much easier it is a premium products.  Every rural community has a need for fence lumber and I suggest it as a good starting point.  Low end pricing is $1/bdft.  Others get higher pricing.  
Liking Walnut

Chuck White

Most in this area used to use Elm for the flooring in horse stalls!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
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Solar_HoneyBee0

Like a couple people said, Red Oak by me is pretty cheap. At least in regards for something you would use for fencing. For 4/4 you're looking around $1.10 - $1.60 depending on quantity needed. However, with this being 8/4 the price would easily add $1.00 per board foot if not more.

I had an order not too long ago for 2,500 board feet of Red Oak 8/4. I quoted the guy at $2.50 a board foot since it was green. He was happy since I was almost $1.00 below most people he could find and I delivered it for just some fuel money. He was happy and so was I. I guess it just depends on your area and what you're happy with for a profit. Best of luck.

firefighter ontheside

Well, I gotta come up with the logs, but I was thinking at least $2/bf. Maybe I can charge a bit more.  I need to figure out how many of each size board I am gonna get out of a log to know how much to pay for a log.

Thanks for everyone's input.  It's very helpful.
Woodmizer LT15
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AlpineCutter

Firefighter, i think you are over estimating your log yeild a little bit if you figure you can get 11 2x8's out of a 20 inch log. Thats 22 inches of lumber without figuring in your saw kerf.

Southside

Another option that works well in stalls is Hemlock if you have any around, Tamarack is even better but I am assuming there is none by you. 
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firefighter ontheside

Quote from: AlpineCutter on August 28, 2018, 08:38:26 PM
Firefighter, i think you are over estimating your log yeild a little bit if you figure you can get 11 2x8's out of a 20 inch log. Thats 22 inches of lumber without figuring in your saw kerf.
Was thinking I'd get one or two out of each side.
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Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

firefighter ontheside

Quote from: Southside logger on August 28, 2018, 09:14:00 PM
Another option that works well in stalls is Hemlock if you have any around, Tamarack is even better but I am assuming there is none by you.
Wish we did have some hemlock or tamarack, but no.  ERC and yellow pine here in mid Missouri.
Woodmizer LT15
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Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
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Southside

Ugg... Forgot where you were. My bad. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
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Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Brad_bb

You have to be real careful what horses are exposed to.  There are a lot of things that are toxic to horses.  

Southern Yellow Pine is standard for horse stalls (non-treated).  I just did 2x Ash for a barn and stalls.  It will be treated with Permachink's Shell Guard to ward off PPB or any other bug (the ash is Dry to 12%).  It's a borate with alcohol solvents to help it penetrate the wood. Borates are low toxicity for people and animals when dry.  
  I'm looking at putting an oil finish.  The barn fram has heritage oil finish, which is tung oil, linseed oil, and citrus solvent, beeswax, and pine rosin.  Since Tung tree is toxic to horses, I'm having a special mix done without the Tung oil.  Flax oil, which is linseed oil, is not toxic generally, although it's not food grade.  I'm going to see how this finish dries and how it does over the shell guard.  They said the Tung oil in the original product dries hard, whereas the linseed oil dries softer or takes longer to dry and doesn't have as hard a surface finish.  You need to study anything you are considering exposing to horses.

Oak leaves are toxic to horses, but as with many trees that are toxic to them, it may take a certain amount of leaves, some are only dangerous in the fall when decaying.  So you have to consider what the toxin is in the material and how much exposure there really is.

Another issue is how much they can crib.  Stall walls that encase the wood in a steel frame is better than just exposed on edge wood.  Even wood that is encased can still be chewed by horses.  Some will dig their teeth into the flat face.  This is harder to do so you have to have a rare neurotic horse to do a lot of damage this way.  Splinters are something else to consider.  If they can chew an edge, how exposed are they to splinters in their mouth?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

thecfarm

I had a horse that would crib. Only one he would not crib,was the pressure treated post. Someone told me put used motor oil on the wood. I did every month or so. He would still eat it!!!!
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firefighter ontheside

I'm just selling some wood.  I'll let this guy worry about the horses eating it.  That's if I get the job.  Gotta come up with the logs before I can think about cutting them.
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Rhodemont

Red Oak horse stall and fence boards is what I do.  I agree you can get 11 2 x 8 out of our 20 inch if the log is good and round by preparing an 8 inch cant and getting one from each side.  But I would prepare quote based on 10 because the pith can give you a poor quality board down the middle.  While I agree the buyer is responsible for protecting his investment from horses chewing such as installing angle steel or aluminum on all exposed corners which nicer stalls have, try not to have sap wood on the edges of boards from the outer cuts.  That will get chewed on by horses out of boredom not even ones that crib.
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