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Peterson Sawmills

Started by Rod, October 29, 2003, 09:28:54 PM

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Sven Christiansen

QuoteSven, what do you mean?

Please explain
If you use the production numbers we have published, that's based on cutting edged, 1" red oak.  The LT70 with the 61HP Cat engine comes up with around 800 bdft per hour.  Over an eight-hour day that's 6400 bdft of 1" red oak. (There are a number of other variables involved as well...)

You know what they say about statistics...

I'm simply saying that one should be very careful when making production comparisons.

Rod

Thanks Sven,Maybe when Jake gets back he can tell us how Petereson came up with their 800 bf per hour.

Or maybe its on their web site and I over looked it.

thanks


KiwiJake

Sven, for knowledge sake on a 38" log how would one cut 7"x9" cants, with out rehandling sections of the log (7x9 ties are HEAVY).  Would you cut the log through out horizontally 7" (surely the band would get some mega resistance from the wieght as it cuts), once this is done do you rotate the cut up log 90 degrees and cut the square ties out of it with the remainder 9" sections, surely you wouldn't cut every tie individually. If the log does cut this way would one have to fish out the slabs and the good wood at the end or does the machine have a hydraulic clearing arm to load the cut up sections directly on to eg a forklift.  3/6 logs at a time are handy. I would just like to know a little more on your machine. Wieght comes with horse power, and so does extra mechanical gadgets for the justification of the horse power.

SHOOTOUT, is around the corner so maybe it is a little early to be pulling comparisons.  :)

Rod

Thats a good point Jake :P

Sounds like your ready for the shootout 8) 8) 8)



Sven Christiansen

QuoteI would just like to know a little more on your machine.
http://www.woodmizer.com/sawmills/professional/LT70.html


Now, about the ties.  Here in America, one log produces one tie because you can only use the boxed heart.  Period.

So, the rest of the log is good for dimensional lumber. Perfect for the flexibility of the LT70 (or any other Wood-Mizer for that matter).

If someone simply wants to cut large cants for resaw, the LT70 will more than handle all the requirements.

The LT70 also has log loading and board drag back to make things easier (that's an understatement) for the user.  And don't worry about the blade... They do quite well.

If you or anyone is interested in seeing this done in person, you don't have to wait until next October at the Shootout.  Come to a show near you where we're exhibiting the LT70 (or whichever mill you're interested in).  We'll cut you a tie and other dimensional lumber on the spot.

http://www.woodmizer.com/support/servev.html[/i]

One final note.  I really don't want to get into a shouting match (and I hope no one interprets this discussion as such).

Rod

The tie buyers will take ties that are not boxed here in the US,but by the tie rules you are right that the tie is only to be boxed

They just don't like it if you cut straight through the heart but some times that doesn't matter,just depends how bad they need the ties.

And I have seen the LT70 with the Cat motor when I was I PA.

Its a great mill

Rod

Sven,I was just asking questions.

And they way I've got it figured is even if I did just cut cants for the pallet buyers I would need 4''x6'' or 5 1/2''x6'' cants that brings $300 mft,were a 5/4x6'' brings $250mft

logically I would think they would give more for the 5/4 by they don't.

I know they is a reason for that but I haven't figured that out yet. :P

RevCant

I can't resist :).  I've owned 3 Woodmizers and now I own a Peterson 8WPF.  The last WM was the LT40 Super Hydraulic with remote.  A very nice machine.  I got tired of sharpening blades, trying to deal with big logs, and wavy lumber.  I sold the mill, bought a Peterson, added a Lou Brown electric lift, and have seldom looked back.  Yeah, its hard to cut stuff under 8 inches, but who wants that stuff on any mill ::)?  I have cut some pretty big stuff (62" dia), but I mostly cut average logs and get consistantly flat, square lumber.

Important note.  Manufacturer claims are just that. The real world is a different place.  I'm sure the ASM is an awesome machine, as well as the LT70.  Nobody is going to cut 800bdft an hour day in and day out without a lot of support equipment and manpower.  But if you can afford an LT70, you can probably afford the little extras :D!
If cows could only tail....

ARKANSAWYER

  Rod,
  You should check with them tie buyers again.  I do not know of a tie buyer (there could be one) that will buy a hardwood tie that the heart is not boxed.  Ties have to be straight and if you cut 4 ties from a 20 inch oak log they will not be straight very long.  If you put 3 oak logs under a swing mill that are 15 inch in dia then how are you going to get them out?  You will have 3 200lb ties to pick up and move before you get 3 more logs in there.   Logs in and waste out then more logs in and waste out.   I call it a good day when I cut 20 to 25 ties and 1,200 bdft of lumber.  You can make more off of the grade then you can the tie.
   What are you going to have to pay for logs?   What are you getting for Ties?  You said that you get $300mbdft for pallet cants and that is very good.  Do you have a loader that can lift 5,000 lbs to put them ties on the truck?  Do you have a way to lift them logs off of the truck?  Do you have a way to move all of them slabs and sawdust as well as a place to put them?  My little band saw cuts 200 to 250 bdft an hour and makes 1/3 the sawdust and at the end of the day you can shovel 5 wheelborrow loads of sawdust and 2 bundles of slabs will have to be hauled off as well 3 bundles of grade lumber and 1 bundle of ties has to be banded and moved.
  Just because a mill can cut 800 bdft an hour does not mean you can produce 19 ties an hour 8 hours a day.
  KiwiJake,
  My little 25hp can pull my 1 1/4 blade while cutting a 28x26 cant in half with out any problems but I have had a 12 inch hickory grab it and not let go.
ARKANSAWYER
ARKANSAWYER

Rod

I have checked with the tie buyers,I can get 17.50 for mixed hardwoods,oaks bring 19.50,I can get the junk wood for free but I have to pay the loggers $160 mft to bring them to me.

The Peterson has a drag back

I was thinking of just letting the drag back slide the ties on to the forks.

and you don't stack the logs on top of each other But you place them on log dogs if there small logs.

And yes I have forks that will pick up 3500 lbs

The guys around here have grapples on there log trucks for unloading the logs.

If the slab pile get to big I will just burn them

Or sale them for fire wood

Or  dump them over the mountion

The ties don't have to be banded either

The sawdust I will just scoop up with the loader.

And I get paid fridays after noon on ties.

Pallet cants are FOB.

What they have done around here is they have been  cutting slective over the years and there are some big cull and junk wood that they need removed so the red oaks can have room to grow.

Like Hemlock,there are companies that are give $200mft now

I can cut that and sale it the the people aronf here for $400mft

A person could even bid on some timber and sale the high grade off and keep the low grade

The big timber companies like Plum creek,Coastal just to name a few need those tree removed








DanG

That's sorta the point I was trying to make over in that other thread, Arkey. Most any mill can outcut it's operator. You either gotta have automation or lots of help to get the max out of the mill. As you add more overhead in salaries, fuel, payments on support eqpt, etc. you have to be sure these items increase production enough to pay for themselves. With wise management, the smaller operator can take a larger portion of a smaller pie, and put coin in his pocket with less headaches. You can't be skeert of hard work, though. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Rod

Also with the Peterson I don't have to mess with those bandblades either

The money I can save buying the Peterson I might buy a band resaw for cants if I need to.

KiwiJake

Hey Rod, to save loading down time and increase production (forklifts are cool) you could stack three logs on your dogged base skids, stack three logs on a second dogged skid on top of your three logs. So basicly you have two layers of 3 dogged logs. The ASM has a large frame, you might aswell use it. So, even if you can only get one tie out of each log you still get production at the end of the day. A band resaw IS a good purchase and I would completely agree that it is not a neccesity but a value added investment.

Arky, you may see a bit more sawdust with a swinger but it's the price you pay for consistancy and production.

Sven, whats wrong with comparing apples to oranges, one may have a bit more tang than the other (if thats what your looking for :D)


Norm

I don't cut wavy stuff on my bandmill unless I'm doing something wrong like using a dull blade or trying to cut too wide a board in white oak. If I break a log down to a 12" wide cut they run very true and I can up the tension and go like a bat out of he!!.

I still have not seen how a swinger handles tension in logs. I wish we got all logs with a perfectly centered heart but most are not that way. Captain gave a good explanation on how he did it but I guess I'll just have to see it done as seeing it done sinks in better for me.

Hey I got an idea, WM can send me an lt-70 and Peterson's can send me their new mill and I'll do an un-biased report. I should have it finished in 2 years, 3 tops. :D

Rod

Thats a good idea Jake

And just for agrument sake lets forget the ties and move on to pallet cants

How would a bandsaw go about cutting 5 1/2''x6'' cants from a log?

We already no how a Peterson would do it,.

And ARKANSAWYER said that just because the company say you can cut 800 feet and hour doesn't mean you will average that in an 8 hour day

He said he cuts 200-250 average per hour per day

So my question is what does your company say you can cut per hour with your mill?

Blade cost on a Peterson for cutting an 8 hour,3-6 mbdf a day is almost next to nothing the way I've got it figured.

How much would it be for bands?

ARKANSAWYER

Rod,
   How are you going to slide a 200lb tie onto the forks?  Are you going to be steppin over some rollers or something and have the forks just setting right behind you while you saw?  Your tie will only be inches off the ground and that is quite a lift.  My ties are waist high and my mill has rollers.  My mill is said to saw 200 bdft an hour.  I have sawn as high as 400 bdft an hour. I can cut any size cant you want and even cut a octagon and taper it if you want that way and never slow down.  I have sawn with a swing mill, a band mill, and on a circle mill.   I have millions of bdft to my credit and do this for a living.  But a man would have to ask himself this.  If these swingmills are so wonderful how come here in the states I can not find a single soul who makes a living sawing with a swing mill?  I know of several with manual band mills and several MD guys that do it.  I even know a old man who kicks his circle saw carriage through the log and pulls it back with a rope that makes a living sawing.  When you do this I guess you will be the first I know of but you had better band them ties before you ship them.
ARKANSAWYER
P.S.   Maybe "down under" the logs do not have stress ???

ARKANSAWYER

Rod

The drag back will slide the tie onto the forks,I don't have to move.

I thought I'd set the forks at the end of the mill

I will not have to toch th tie

As far as someone making a living with a swinger I really don't know the answer.But the swinger I'm talking about is a new one.No one has one yet.

I don't no of anyone with bandmills around here who are making a living with them.


I know of a lot of people with log trucks and big mills that are making a living tho.

So the board feet per hour must be close on what your sawmill company said you could saw.

The Peterson company says  650-800 feet per hour,so maybe there cloce also.

I'd figure I could cut 75-150 ties a day

cost on blade will be $0

Bands for a bandsaw mill to cut 6000 feet

You will need to change or resharpen your blade about every 500 feet

So 6000/500=12x$6 to get them resharpened=$72+shipping

Alot of blade cost

As far as not being able to cut octagon and taper ,if that becomes high demand I will buy a bandmill.

I believe the blade  on the Petereson is 6mm,or 6.6 I think

Those meters get me mixed up sometimes. :P







Rod

I wonder if Thomas Edison had problems trying to sell people on the idea of the light bulb?

Then he had to sale everyone on the idea they needed electrical power to there homes.

So what I'm saying is just because no one is making a living with  a swinger doesn't mean it can't be done.

HORSELOGGER

I think that what Arkansawyer is missing is that he does not make a living with his woodmizer any more or less than I do with my Peterson. I have followed his postings for a few years now, and I dont see where he is sawing lumber exclusively with his days.?(building timber frames, shaging logs , delivering lumber etc.. ) What is "making a living " described as , any way? I make a living logging, sawing, drying and making flooring. My wife does not work and I am building on and paying for my own 40 acre piece of creation. I would never have the arrogance to make my chosen way of life the standard that all others should measure their success by, nor would I try to make others feel they were inadeqate if they did not copy my set up.There are most likely hundreds of woodmizer failure stories out there ( just using the law of averages based on the amount of sawmills they have sold) But the sawmill was not the reason... If a person is "makin it" in this business, however they are doing it, it will be because of the skill , desire and work that they put in.The mills are just tools, not the Magic bullet. I believe Arkansawyer has , along with an lt40, an edger, a tractor with forks, a dodge truck and gooseneck trailer, and has talked about wanting to dry lumber and get a logosol moulder. At what point is he not making a living with his woodmizer anymore? If he is making it in this business, it is because of him and the type of man he is, not his sawmill choice. 2 weeks ago I sold 300 bft of kiln dry curly cherry for 5 bucks a bft , via the internet to a guy 2 states away. After i sawed that lumber , back in July, i probably did not saw anything else for a week.I made 1500 bucks off the clears, and still have 200 ft of curly commons in my shop. That money goes a long way on our monthly budget, but according to some here, I am not making a living with my swing blade??? I  think Rod is doing his homework more than a lot of people who jump into small mills, he just needs to be careful what he listens to. Pick out the negative, chew on " how are ya gonna" questions and good luck to him.  One thing though..... I love my Peterson, but 28, 000 bucks for a small mill with no log handling on board is way too much money, in my opinion. If i was going to just stand in front of a mill as my sole enterprise, it would need to have some hydraulics, especially for that money.
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

Rod

Well maybe Jake was just give a rough guess on the price of the new Peterson.

I don't think there in full production yet

And $28,000 is a lot but were else can you buy a new mill that can cut 650-800bdft per hour that is mobile,and you don't need a ton truck to move it?

And a mill that cut a 4' log

And the new mill does have some hydraulics,or something like that,but nothing for rolling the logs into the mill tho.

I don't think thats going to be a big deal,they could put in with the tractor.



ronwood

Rod,

I bought a 2003 LT40HG25 for $23,500 with a debarker last Feb. It has all the hydralics to load and turn the log. It won't do 500 bd ft. an hour. I saw part time and if can I do 1000 bd ft. of grade lumber in a day thats a lot of work when I am by myself. Pull the mill with a GMC Serria 1/2 ton 4X4 without any problems.

Seems to me your buying a mill for $28,000 that does not have any capability of loading logs easily when your are sawing remotely with no support equipment. My friend has a Lucas and he spends a lot more time setting up a log that I do loading it onto my mill.  There are times that that the swing mill works better that my woodmizer especially when I have a 40+ in diameter log to cut.  Then it really shines.

Maybe you would be better with a 8" Peterson (non ATS) and investing the difference in a resaw.

Blade cost is a consideration but I don't think ithat is such a big factor.

Good luck on what ever you decide. Each saw has it's pros and cons. You need to decide what works best for you.
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

ARKANSAWYER

Rod,
  You stated that your log size will be 15 to 20 inches.  To saw 800 bdft an hour you will have to saw 6 20 inch 8ft logs an hour.  How long is it going to take you to stage them 6 logs and get them under your mill?   Due to the taper of most hardwoods I would not saw them 18ft long or try to stack them much.  I am just asking these logistic questions because I have been around a few mills.  Now if you can saw 800 bdft an hour and it takes you an hour to get ready to saw again then that is still 3,200 bdft a day!   I know what a man can do in a day and I know pie in the sky when I see it.
   I do make my living sawing.  So far this year I have sawn 250,000+ bdft.  On days when I work on barns and timber frames I saw a 1,000 bdft before I go or after I get home under the lights.   I saw in the snow and rain just like today.  When I started I had to beg the Banker to loan me the $21 grand for the mill and I just had $300 to buy logs with and pulled the mill around with a '79' Bronco and hauled logs and lumber on an ole 2 axle trailer.  Business Plain was simple.  Get up in the morning and saw till the sun set.  Buy logs and sell lumber and buy more logs sell more lumber.  It is hard work and I know why many get tired and go back to work.   Like Horselogger I look for ways to improve my setup and add value to what I do so as I make as much or more for the same about of work.  It is good to saw 2,000 bdft a day and make $400 but it is even better to saw 1,000 bdft and make $600 and not even double your investment and not any more time.
  When you get set up let me know where and I will make a side trip to visit when I go off to deliver some long timbers or such.
ARKANSAWYER

ARKANSAWYER

Rod

ARKANSAWYER

What I plan on doing was

Take the forks and load 2, 18 foot logs on the forks

Then place them on the log dogs

go back and get 2 more and place 1 more in the first bottom row

set 2 more 6''x6''x5'blocks with log dogs on top of the bottom row

And place 3 more 18' log on top of the bottom row.

If I have taper I will lift the 6''x6'' block that the logs are resting on with the forks and wedge as needed

How long it will take is,what,maybe a 1/2 hour?

As I cut, the drag back will slide the lumber and 18' ties on to the forks of the tractor that is sitting at the end of the mill.

When all the logs have been sawed I will end up with 6,18' ties and some boards.

The ties I will stack up and cut in half with a chain saw to 9'

Or maybe sale to the ties at 18' if they would want them that way.

So that makes 12 ties 9' when I'm done cutting and a few board that are all edged.

The ties alone would be 567 bdft not counting the boards.

Estimated time is?

I'm hoping for 1-1 1/2 hour

Cost on blade will be $0

As you know this is all in theory

No one has one of the new Petersons as far as I know.

I know there might be a few kincks that might need to be worked out but I'm trying to work them out now.

Thanks for your input on the subjuct.

If everthing works out as planned and I get setup

Sure,come on down and see how the thing works

And anyone else is welcomed also.

I live close to Summersville West Virginia

Not much happens here

But if you injoy hunting or fishing then you might injoy the place ,and just down the road is Whitewater Rafting     ,http://www.wvbridgeday.com/whitewater-rafting/

So if your down this way and you get board to could do some rafting





Steve_M

Anybody else notice this about Rod:

1) He is interested in cutting ties.

2) He flies the West Virginia flag.

3) He has some very ambitious expectations.

and

4) His name appears to be Shawn Rodney (judging by his email address)


Does this remind anyone else of a guy named that posted here and on the other forum under the name-----Shawn.   :o

Just wondering ???

Rod---If I am way off base here and I have offended you I do appoligize.  Just having a little fun.  I do enjoy the post and the friendly banter.

Steve



2001 WM Super LT40 Electric and WM Twin Blade Edger, just a part timer custom sawing and cutting salvage logs.

Rod

Steve thats probably one of the kids on the computer.

Its had keeping up with them at times

I hope they didn't do anything wrong ::)

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