band roller

slider · April 21, 2010, 07:13:21 PM

Anyone fabricated a band roller ? Just curious,I have never seen one.I would think you would need a convex wheel against a concave wheel or vice verse. In order to push past the curve and let it spring back flat.Wish I could see one of cooks rollers close up.If you could just roll the band between two flat wheels under pressure perhaps some of us wannabe fabricators could pull it off. I have a cats claw sharpener , and well worth the price. al

bandmiller2 · April 21, 2010, 08:25:28 PM

Slider,I've thought about the same thing,some of the guys here have cooks rollers hopefully they will clue us in.Hopefully the slight crown could be ground on a sealed ball bearing.Frank C. Oh and welcome.

Brian_Rhoad · April 21, 2010, 09:27:36 PM

I'm working on one made from a sheet metal bead roller I bought from Harbor Freight. I plan on using a flat roller with a bead convex roller to flatten the blade.

sdunston · April 24, 2010, 06:39:38 AM

I am in the process of putting one togather made out of an old PS&W edge roller, I have to finish the guides and mount it on something. After seeing the videos that Tim Cook puts out I can see the need for one. I know myself I have sharpered and set bands and they still want to dive and after putting a straight edge on the band I see why. We are on to something good here. If the one I put togather does not work out I am going to get one from COOKS.
Sam

bandmiller2 · April 24, 2010, 07:25:10 AM

Sounds risky but I wonder if one could be made to use on the mill install from the back would take little pressure to straighten a running band,or probibly safer pull the band around by hand.Frank C.

ladylake · April 24, 2010, 07:34:07 AM

Running 1-1/4 x 42 blades my sharpened ones cut as good or better than new right down to the end. This band roller thing might be more for 1-1/2 blades that would cup easyier. Steve

sdunston · April 24, 2010, 05:39:02 PM

All blades cup after a while. My metal cutting bandsaw with 3/4 blade cup at the same time they go dull but theyn are unsharpable. I have found that 1 out of 4 band blades for the sawmill that I have are cupped, but right moneys tight so if I cant build a roller I will have to go with out.
Sam

ladylake · April 24, 2010, 06:24:32 PM

Mayby the cup doesn't matter much on 1-1/4" blades, it sure doesn't on mine. Steve

backwoods sawyer · April 25, 2010, 01:40:51 AM

I spent many hours hammering large bandsaws, so when I find an issue I just lay it out on some flat steal and straighten it out with a brass hammer and a straight edge under good light. Rolling them is faster but hammering is even more accurate with less cost.

sdunston · April 25, 2010, 06:51:00 AM

Quote from: backwoods sawyer on April 25, 2010, 01:40:51 AM
I spent many hours hammering large bandsaws, so when I find an issue I just lay it out on some flat steal and straighten it out with a brass hammer and a straight edge under good light. Rolling them is faster but hammering is even more accurate with less cost.

I agree that hammering would do the job but by rolling the band it also add strength to the back of the band acording to tim cook.
Sam

backwoods sawyer · April 25, 2010, 09:38:18 AM

Correct, straight steel will have more beam strength then curved steal, it is just the path that you take to get it there that is different.

ladylake · April 25, 2010, 10:06:42 AM

To me anytime steel is bent on way then back it loses strenght. Steve

Dan_Shade · April 25, 2010, 10:34:35 AM

you're referring to "work hardening", ladylake.

I wonder if the increased performance due to rolling the band offsets the possible shortenend lifespan.

ladylake · April 25, 2010, 03:22:03 PM

It can't here, I have no trouble cutting straight untill they break. Maybe a little trouble in big frozen knotty burr oak but brand new bands don't do as good. Steve

backwoods sawyer · April 25, 2010, 03:58:46 PM

The ones that I hammer have been in a wreck and would not go back on the mill the way they are. I have one saw that came off the wheel when trying to back out of a cut, it had a kink in it but other then that it was a good saw, 15-20 min on the bench and it has been cutting good ever since, I have sharpened it 7 times since it was wrecked. When I am getting ready to set the teeth on the saw I place a straight edge on them and if I can see light under the straight edge I hammer them if they look good then I leave them alone. I find that I only hammer one or two saws each time I sharpen 20 saws or so.

bandmiller2 · April 26, 2010, 07:11:19 AM

Backwoods please tell us more about your small band benching.How heavy a brass hammer and its face shape.Do you extend the bands teeth over the edge of the steel "anvil"so you won't take the set out??I have a hard time understanding why the spring in the band dosen't return the cup after you hammer it on a flat surface.How far apart do you make your hammer strikes and how do you determine the force of the blows??Sorry for so many questions but I'd like to try it on problem bands.Frank C.

slider · April 26, 2010, 09:32:15 AM

good questions ,frank c . can"t wait for the answers. For those that never had a problem ,I want to be clear ,it only happens occasionally with me but I want to know why thease things happen and how to fix them.This hammering is interesting. al

ely · April 26, 2010, 09:44:19 AM

like slider says, it only happens a few times, but without the band roller those few bands would be useless to me for sawing.
i have a few customers whose bands seem to need rolling more than mine. but i feel like they push their bands more than i do. meaning i change my bands out before they get very dull. that way it only takes one pass to sharpen it back to where it needs to be.

logwalker · April 26, 2010, 12:27:56 PM

It is hard to understand this band rolling issue. The bands are pulled over the wheels with considerable tension. But the cup across the band body actually points down making the blade dive. Is this the same results that other people get? I am using 1.5" blades and for awhile I thought I was having a problem with this, but I adjusted my setting process and the problem pretty much went away. I was getting too much set on one side and causing it to dive.

Joe

ely · April 26, 2010, 04:27:41 PM

on my mill when i get a band that is cupped it starts to rise then imediately dives away from the guides, once it dives it stays diving as long as you want to push it, until it breaks or comes off the wheels.
i think the pressure against the guide rollers stops it from rising more than it does and it has no resistance to diving and just pulls away from the guides.

backwoods sawyer · April 27, 2010, 12:45:44 AM

I use a light weight square headed brass hammer for hammering the saws. I have a piece of long heavy flat bar that the saw lays on. I do not swing the hammer but rather drop and bounce the hammer along the ridge over lapping as I go. I check for flatness then roll the saw on around a bit until the entire saw is flat. Good light behind the straight edge allows you to see how you are doing. Do not dent the saw, just tap-tap-tap the saw.

Bibbyman · April 27, 2010, 03:26:18 AM

How do you detect that a band is cupped? I've handled untold number of blades and don't remember ever seeing one that is visibly cupped – even ones that don't want to cut even if they're sharp.

And once you find a blade with cup and you roll it, how do you measure or test if for flat? Could you "over flatten" it and make it crowned?

What if you took a cupped blade and flipped it inside out and put it on the mill, tighten the tension way up, and then ran it for a few minutes? (obviously you couldn't cut that way – don't ask me how I know) Is there any chance that may take the cup out of the blade?

kelLOGg · April 27, 2010, 05:20:00 AM

Quote from: Bibbyman on April 27, 2010, 03:26:18 AM
What if you took a cupped blade and flipped it inside out and put it on the mill, tighten the tension way up, and then ran it for a few minutes? Is there any chance that may take the cup out of the blade?

That's an interesting question. Can Tim Cook chime in here?

slider · April 27, 2010, 08:38:54 AM

Bibby man the bands that I was having trouble with did not show any cupping either but when I checked the raker teeth (straight teeth),I found out that it was running about 7,000 ths to one side.I did this by checking with a dial indicator on both sides of the same tooth.I guess this was causing my set to be 7,000 more on one side.Pearsy has an old post on this under band rolling.I like your idea on flipping the band and running it. al

ely · April 27, 2010, 09:08:08 AM

when my equip came from cooks, there was a short piece on blank band stock in the box. i use it for setting my setting machine dial idicator, and i also use it as a straitedge for checking flatness on a band. i always run it crossways on the gullet to the back of the band and check for light shining underneath the straitedge. that will show if the band is cupped or crowned.
i had a few bands that would not cut at all, when i learned about the band roller from cooks i tried it and it worked extremely well.
understand me on this. i bought the equipment as a package deal , i used the sharpener and setter first. the band roller never got unpacked for the first 3 months. i was under the impression i didnt need it. all my bands cut better than new when i got done sharpening them. until one day i had a band show up that had me pulling hair out. i finally hung it on the wall and painted it so it would not be used again. the set and sharpness was perfect on it. just would not cut straight. i accumulated about 3 of them over three months time. one day i read what the cooks boys wrote about band rolling so i got it out and set it up. i really had no idea what i was doing nor did i have any faith in it. but when i pulled the band off the roller i sawed perfect lumber with it. the other two cut just the same after rolling them.
just my opinion, the band roller is a vaulable tool when it is needed.

slider · April 27, 2010, 11:53:30 AM

ely,what do the dies on your cooks band roller look like,flat convex against concave ? Im puzzled as to how it works. thanks al

Bibbyman · April 27, 2010, 05:52:59 PM

I think I've got a blade that just wouldn't cut that I've put off to the side. When I get out to the mill again, I'll see if I can see any cup in the blade. Also, now I have a dial gauge to check the set.

We had a time when I let the blade rollers/guides get out of whack. It would saw ok most of the time but on real hard cuts, the blade would heat up and would lose tension. I suspect if there was a time for a blade to cup, it would have been then. A couple got so hot I couldn't hold them when I took them off.

sdunston · April 27, 2010, 08:12:04 PM

the easy way to check for cup is to set a single edge razor blade across the blade with tenison on it and if you can see light under the blade it needs to be rolled(credit goes to tim cook)
thanks Sam

Bibbyman · April 27, 2010, 10:06:08 PM

I found the blade I set aside because it wasn't cutting well. It wasn't on the mill and under tension as you mention but I held a straight edge against the outside of the blade and could see daylight under the middle. So I guess the blade had some crown to it. But I got to looking at it in the bright sunlight and found many 1/4" deep cracks at the gullets. So it's time was up. I busted it up and pitched it.

redcedar · April 27, 2010, 10:16:54 PM

Understand, I am about to purchase my first sawmill, a cook's sawmill, I visited with Tim Cook for sometime today. He showed me the sharpener, the setter and the roller, from what I remember about checking a band to see if it needed rolling, put a straight edge across the band, if you see light between the straight edge and band, that band is right, if you cannot see light the blade needs rolling. correct me if wrong. He also advised me if you could only purchase one out of the three, he recommended getting the roller first, comment was you will need it.

bandmiller2 · April 28, 2010, 07:10:58 AM

Redcedar,I think you got it twisted,if you see light you need to roll.As stated before you don't need to roll every sharpening most of us have cut for years many many bands and never rolled,but its the odd band that just won't stay on course that needs it.I have a Cats Claw sharpener and alot of faith in what Tim says but I'd get the grinder first.Frank C.

bandmiller2 · April 28, 2010, 07:14:36 AM

As Slider Al asked could one of you folks that have a roller please put a straight edge on the rollers and tell us if their convex and/ or concave.Do you need to use much force to roll a band.??Thanks Frank C.

ely · April 28, 2010, 09:18:52 AM

the band roller looks almost similar to what i call a bead roller used in a sheetmetal shop.
the band rolls between the two beads, you squish the two beads together with the band in between them. as you roll the band it feeds thru the machine.

i would say the rollers are convex, they look like a bead from the profile.

Bibbyman · April 28, 2010, 09:27:33 AM

I read the "roller first" comment and then went back to be to think about that. I suspect the reason he may have said that is - that you can send your blades out to be sharpened and set. (That's good advice for people starting out and not sawing that much.) Then, if you have a roller, you can roll your own. There may be band blade sharpening service that roll blades but I've not heard of one.

We've sawn 16 years and likely over 3 million bf and never rolled a blade. For me, it sounds like an interesting theory. I'm from the Show-Me state.

I'm going to try to watch for it. If I can remember, I'll straight edge the blade before I put it on and then after tensioning to see if it's flat.

ely · April 28, 2010, 09:41:08 AM

bibster, for me personally i would have had to trash only about 6 bands or so in my ilustrious career, had i not had the band roller. but i do sharpen for other people and i have used the roller on their bands alot. and by alot i mean it varies from 3 or 4 for some customers to every band with other folks. i dont check bands to roll them until they bring them back and say " this band won't cut" then i will check them and roll them the correct way.

in all honesty the band roller to me is sorta like the chiropractor i use, you really cant tell its doing anything at all until after you try it out. i really felt like i had bought some snake oil when i got the roller, simply because i was new at sawing and for a long while never had a need for it.