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Timber Bandits Strike Again

Started by Frickman, June 23, 2004, 08:27:19 PM

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Frickman

This topic has been talked about here before, so it's deja vu all over again, but here it goes.

A property owner back up in a hollow about three miles from me sent his son up to see me yesterday. The son asked if I wanted to look at some trees, and of course I said yes. Now I've been friends with these folks for a long time, and have done business with them some on some small things over the years. A few years ago they had talked about their timber, and I even went and looked at it with them. They weren't ready to do anything, so I told them when they were to let me know.

Well when I got there much to my suprise there is two triaxle loads of logs laying there. They were all top logs, and all cherry. I asked where the butt logs were, and the father said they were gone. An outfit two counties over came knocking on doors and talked this fellow out of his timber. They hauled away four trailer loads and two triaxle loads of cherry and never paid a cent. I asked about his contract, and he said he didn't have one. The logger had promised to pay something, sometime and never did, and the landowner finally ran him off, but the damage was already done.

This was some of the nicer cherry in our area, much of it 20" dbh and clear up two logs. It made me sick to see the mess they left also. Now this landowner could have received a nice check and had a good looking harvest done, but he listened to a slick salesman's pitch and got took. These kind of deals make the rest of the industry look bad. I try as best as I can to educate landowners, but sometimes that is not enough. What took maybe seventy years to grow was wiped out in a week, with no compensation for the property owner.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Tom

Too bad.  Why do we have to have folks like that in this world?

Well, it's time for a lawyer and see if some recouping can be done.  

Can an inventory be taken from the stumps that would hold up in court?

Texas Ranger

In Texas a stump cruise holds up in court.  I have done many of them.  I lose a few, win most.  A forester in that area should be approached about such a cruise and evaluation.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

SwampDonkey

We've never had any luck up here with recovering $$ from wood theft, only in those cases that the thief admits the gilt when confronted with a stump cruise. And most these thieves are very organized and have been well educated about the law and their chances of prosecution. The trouble is with the judges and lawyers who figure trees are worthless. Steal $10 bucks and get 6 months. What a bunch of popcorn balls. ;D

My cousin got duked by a shifty contractor some years back and never got paid for a harvest done on 100  acres of land because the guy said the papers burnt up in a house fire. So, since the guy's house burnt they never persued it. All they had to do was contact the marketing board for the scale bills because tickets where issued for wood deliveries to New Brunswick mills with a property id number associated with the ticket. And now the province has a load slip legislation that every trucker must document the property id and the source and the destination of the wood. I was responsible for building the database to accomodate the load slips, for 3 marketing boards.

Its too bad about the neighbors Frickman. But, I find sometimes neighbors seem to circumvent your help and expertise. Sometimes they are afraid you'll find out about their business. One only wonders sometimes. And now your neighbors got burnt. Next time they will think more of their good neighbor Frickman I bet. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

Well, there had to be some sort of oral contract.   Exactly what this guy was willing to pay and the owner was willing to accept needs to be known before you can go much further.  The landowner will be embarassed to say, but he needs to fess up.

A stump count is in order.  Its a lot easier to do it when the brush is down than when its up.  You need to measure the stump diameter, stump height and species.  Record and number each stump so you don't double count.  Take pictures.  

With that data, you can figure up what the dbh of the cut trees were.  After you get a dbh, you have to guesstimate the height and quality.  If there are other similar trees in the stand, that would be ideal.  After that, figure the bf and assign a dollar value.  I've done it like that and made it stick in PA courts.

Also, note any damaged trees.  Monetary damages can be put on that, especially if it is excessive.

He needs a lawyer.  The lawyer can write a really ugly letter that might get this guys attention.  Next step would be either litigation or criminal charges.  We had one lawyer that slapped a logger with a grand theft charge.  That really woke him up.  His trespass wasn't his fault in that case.

Litigation would probably drag on for a couple of years.  If the logger has no assets (most of the thieves don't), then maybe you can get a lien on his equipment.  If it is a legitimate business, you can put a lien on them.  

It would really be nice if you could find out where the logs were sent.  Those veneer buyers squirm when they think they have hot logs.  They'll shut that logger off on short notice.  Same goes for most mills.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ron Scott

Yes, get a lawyer, preferably one who has worked timber theft cases, and a professional consulting forester for an "all resource" damage assessment plus the timber values removed.

I've done many of these in Michigan with favorable results for the landowner in court. As Ron W. said, there had to be "some sort of agreement" to allow the cutting of the timber. Anything else would be timber theft.
~Ron

Frank_Pender

Ron's, I have done a couple very successful stump counts and calculations with great success on both some hardwoods and some Douglas Fir.  The fella won out here in Oregon.  Here, it is tripple damages for such activity and perhaps some small room accomodations for a period of time.  If there is still some time the timber owner might even be able to put a lean on the logs, if he knows that mills might have receieved them.   Then the mill owner cannot market the lumber until the lean is satisfied.
Frank Pender

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Frickman

Thanks for the response there guys. I don't plan on getting involved personally though, as I am neither a lawyer or forester. This fellow had an oral contract, but in these parts that's meaningless. And like Swampdonkey said, most lawyers and judges think trees have no value, or at least till they have some to sell.

There are two things that burn me up about this. Number one of course is the logger who did this for obvious reasons. These outfits are pros and know what they can get away with. In Pa if you make at least one payment then any problems are considered a violation of the contract and must be handled in civil court, a long, expensive ordeal. The second thing is the landowner. I have a good reputation in our area, and we had an informal agreement that I'd be allowed to look at the timber if he decided to conduct a harvest. I take a laid-back approach to securing timber, and don't put alot of pressure on people. Well he goes and lets a smooth talking crook take him for all he was worth, and then he comes to me looking for help to fix the situation. I told him that if I'm not involved from the start then I don't want in at all. I don't clean up other people's messes.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Ron Scott

Yes, it's usually quite hard to get one logger to clean up another logger's "mess". Proper administration of the "timber sale contract" is necessary to prevent such problems.

~Ron

Texas Ranger

Frickman, foresters get calls all the time to clean up the messes land owners get themselves into.  They call us last, when they should call us first.  
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Ron Scott

Amen, to that!

I get many such calls each year. Had one today in fact. Some I can help, but most I can't as the damage is done with court being the last resort for the landowner.

A much more costly alternative than if a consultant had been contacted on the "front end".

  
~Ron

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