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Chain saw purchase question

Started by MRowsh, June 03, 2014, 11:51:02 AM

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Ianab

Agreed. I'm just using that as an example, that you need to resharpen as soon as the chain looses it's edge. Not when it wont cut any more.  Having a close look at the cutters is the best way, once you see that chrome layer start to round over, reach for the file. Or just getting a feel for the saw, and thinking "Hmm, it's not cutting quite so well, time to touch it up"

So I agree, it's not after "x" trees, it's when it's needed. If that's 1 tree or 100, so be it. On a bad day it might be 1/2 way through a tree   >:( :D

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Andyshine77

Quote from: Ianab on June 08, 2014, 01:46:04 AM
Agreed. I'm just using that as an example, that you need to resharpen as soon as the chain looses it's edge. Not when it wont cut any more.  Having a close look at the cutters is the best way, once you see that chrome layer start to round over, reach for the file. Or just getting a feel for the saw, and thinking "Hmm, it's not cutting quite so well, time to touch it up"

So I agree, it's not after "x" trees, it's when it's needed. If that's 1 tree or 100, so be it. On a bad day it might be 1/2 way through a tree   >:( :D

Ian

Not long ago I put a new Stihl RS, 105 DL chain on my 7900. As soon as I set the saw in a log, I hit nail and the chain jumped off the bar. I called it a day after that.
Andre.

7sleeper

I know that feeling cutting at a stump with a brand new 24€ Stihl chain. Hit, what I presume, a rock, refilling and cutting a few inches next to the previous cut and of course same rock.... You just have to listen to the signs....

;D

7

MRowsh

Yes I do check the depth too, and file it properly.

This is a good tool, but tis guy does not mention anything about the depth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMJm6UNMuik

This chainsaw sharpner I think is one of the best I have seen so far.  I did not buy it yet, because I have one Harbor Fright electric sharpner and one 12 Volt DC powered one, but I have to file the depth after finishing the sharpening.  This tool does both at the same time.

http://www.amazon.com/STIHL-EASY-CHAINSAW-CHAIN-SHARPENER/dp/B00HY90LAE/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1402232055&sr=8-15&keywords=stihl+chainsaw+sharpener

Thanks for all the good tips. Appreciate it.
God keep you all safe and sound!
LogMaster LM2 with Kubota V1305 Diesel conversion.
There is a price for everything in life!!!  No free lunches!
Retired US Army.

7sleeper

I find the timberline sharpener way out of hand pricewise. And have seen many resell their unit. It is a good idea but fo that money I can buy a bunch of other filling equipment. Further I have yet to see an independant cutting comparison of one chain with a timberline and another with a simple file. I highly doubt the, even if they exist, minimal differences will ever be noticeable in real life.

7

Andyshine77

Quote from: MRowsh on June 08, 2014, 08:57:24 AM
Yes I do check the depth too, and file it properly.

This is a good tool, but tis guy does not mention anything about the depth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMJm6UNMuik

This chainsaw sharpner I think is one of the best I have seen so far.  I did not buy it yet, because I have one Harbor Fright electric sharpner and one 12 Volt DC powered one, but I have to file the depth after finishing the sharpening.  This tool does both at the same time.

http://www.amazon.com/STIHL-EASY-CHAINSAW-CHAIN-SHARPENER/dp/B00HY90LAE/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1402232055&sr=8-15&keywords=stihl+chainsaw+sharpener

Thanks for all the good tips. Appreciate it.
God keep you all safe and sound!

If you're using the HF sharpener, I highly doubt the chains you sharpen are worth anything. Even with the better grinders there's a pretty big learning curve. When you finely learn to set the grinder up properly, the edge a file produces is still far superior. Not only is a badly sharpened chain inefficient, it can kill as saw quicker than one would ever think.
Andre.

7sleeper

Quote from: Andyshine77 on June 08, 2014, 09:36:56 AM
If you're using the HF sharpener, I highly doubt the chains you sharpen are worth anything. Even with the better grinders there's a pretty big learning curve. When you finely learn to set the grinder up properly, the edge a file produces is still far superior. Not only is a badly sharpened chain inefficient, it can kill as saw quicker than one would ever think.
Sorry disagree! I also use a HF clone and my chains are sharp. Of course the file will improve on that. Will have to make a video in the next few days.

7

John Mc

As far as when to sharpen, my favorite quote on this comes form a Game of Logging instructor:

"You don't sharpen a chain because it got dull, you sharpen it to keep it from getting dull."

His point was, if you are doing the former, you waited too long to sharpen (assuming you didn't hit a rock or something).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

pwheel

I've found that a Stihl MS440 (70cc, same power class as a Husky 371/372) will cut 36-42" pine with no issues. For Oak & other hardwoods, 20" bar max. Sharp chain with correctly-filed rakers is a must.
Stihl MS260 Pro, MS261, MS440 x2, MS460, FS90; 1982 Power King 1614

Andyshine77

7 I've seen the reviews of that grinder on other sites. The angles are all over the place, the arm has a ton of flex, the stone wheel doesn't cut well and the list goes on. I had a $400.00 Oregon 511AX grinder at one time. First thing I did was check the angle markings for accuracy, they were off and I recalibrate them. I also had to shim a few things to take the play out. If I had to guess our ideas of what a sharp chain is, are quite different. Unless you're filing 50 chains a day all a firewood cutter needs is a few good files.     

pwheel I must disagree with you as well. A 70cc saw should pull a 24" bar through any hardwood on the face of the earth, with relative ease. If not there's a big problem somewhere.

John your quote was spot on, and is sums up my philosophy.   
Andre.

John Mc

Andyshine77 - I think I probably read some of those same reviews. I thought I had put a post in this thread about seeing some fixes that people had done for the less expensive grinders, but for some reason, it's not showing up.

One of the problems with some of the less expensive grinders is that you end up with a good bit of variation, especially when you compare the left handed cutters to the right handed ones on a chain. The chains were certainly coming out sharp, but the variation was causing troubles. People were putting in shims and washers to take out some of the slop and reduce the variation in angle from one side to the other. It apparently made a significant difference. You still had to be more careful with the cheap grinders than with the high end ones, but it did make an improvement.  Unfortunately, I can't find those posts now.  It may have been on a different website.

John
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

On the Timberline sharpener:  I've never tried one (or even seen one in person). I get good results with my hand file and the Oregon guide that the file snaps in to. Better results than what I get off the grinder at 3 different shops I've tried (and these are REAL chainsaw repair shops, not the local hardware that gave some kid 15 minutes training on a chain grinder). THe grinder does OK, but the hand sharpened chains seem to have a bit of an edge (no pun intended) over the machine ground chains.

I'd like to try the Timberline sometime... but not enough to go out and buy one. The timberline is expensive compared to hand filing tools, but cheap compared to a good grinder It would be interesting to compare the speed and end results to hand filing or grinding to see where it stacks up.

I do know that there is no way to get the 10˚ "down angle" on a Timberline sharpener that you get by lowering the handle on a hand file.  I wonder if that sacrifices much in how the chain cuts (at least on chains that recommend using that 10˚ down angle.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

7sleeper

Quote from: Andyshine77 on June 08, 2014, 06:19:17 PM
7 I've seen the reviews of that grinder on other sites. The angles are all over the place, the arm has a ton of flex, the stone wheel doesn't cut well and the list goes on. ....If I had to guess our ideas of what a sharp chain is, are quite different. Unless you're filing 50 chains a day all a firewood cutter needs is a few good files.     
....
I never made any comment on the contrary. Yes the arm has flex and yes the angles are not precise to a single ° and the stone isn't perfect. Absolutely correct. But no one in the world is going to tell me that any firewood cutter is more precise over 66 or 72 dl with the file without any type of permanently mounted rig. Further I understand the love for precision but there are even more threads on other sites about the optimum angle for the cutter. This is an endless debate because there is no one answer. So if my right hand cutters are at 28° and my left had cutters at 32° I seriously doubt that any major downfalls for a firewooder will ever be noticed. And I am always talking about the firewood gathering guy, not a pro in any way.

I don't know what your criteria is but my criteria is are nice chips cumming out yes or no!? If yes sharp chain if no dull chain. That is my criteria.

And I agree that a file is usually enough for most sharpening chores. For me it isn't enough because when I go to my BIL and have his bunch of chains hanging by the nail in my hands that haven't been sharpend since ages and all they produce is more or less dust, then I sure am happy with the unprecise el cheapo grinder that takes away enough material so that all I do is a few passes with a file to make the results better/perfect. The same is for me on rocked chains. Refiling them is just a pain.

7

MRowsh

LogMaster LM2 with Kubota V1305 Diesel conversion.
There is a price for everything in life!!!  No free lunches!
Retired US Army.

beenthere

They all will do the job, and depending on who is doing the talking and what their experiences are, each will have a favorite tool and method.
And no surprise that a Stihl sales rep would say "best seen so far". ;)

Just need to know when to file, when the teeth are sharp, and what works best for you to get them that way.

I've recited my experience, and my different choices... from the setup of a grinder (never felt the chain was really sharp, tho it would cut), the dremel diamond stones, the Oregon file gauge and holder that clamped to the bar, the various file holders that would rest on top of each tooth, file only, and now the Husky 2-roller guide which I like the best of any of the previous. Prolly not for everyone.
But I don't think the teeth could be any sharper, even considering the expensive Timberline (I think the time spent sharpening would be about 4-5 times longer than the Husky system).

Good luck with your search.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

John Mc

Quote from: 7sleeper on June 09, 2014, 11:44:31 AM
So if my right hand cutters are at 28° and my left had cutters at 32° I seriously doubt that any major downfalls for a firewooder will ever be noticed. And I am always talking about the firewood gathering guy, not a pro in any way.

7 -  I'm not saying the Hf grinder is worthless. As I stated, with care it can work. I brought up the angle variation since the poster mentioned that his saw was wanting to cut in a curve. Filing the left side differently than the right is one thing that can cause a saw not to cut straight.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Andyshine77

Some of the cheap grinders are off 10 or more degrees, not just a few here or there. That makes a big difference. Then you add inexperience and you'll get people coming here saying my saw doesn't cut worth a hoot, I need a bigger one. With the small wheel weak motor, and evening else, I will go ahead and say the HF grinder is useless. Sorry that's my opinion. Like I said I've used the better more expensive grinders, and even then it's hard to get a proper edge if you don't have proper guidance.
Andre.

HolmenTree

Being a "saw filer only" I can't comment on bench mounted grinders seeing I never owned one.
But I do own this handy 20 volt cordless model which I keep in the pickup to bring a rocked out chain back to square again on my stump lowering saw .......then I finish with the hand file.

  

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

MRowsh

One gentlemen diagnosed my issue correctly. Sand and dirt in the bark!  I have been cutting very close to ground to save as much wood as I can. And as I said, after dropping 4 good size trees had to get the back up chain saw.  Now I have two back up chain saws.  So, no need to take time and resharpen.

The HF grainder/sharpner works good for me, and cuts as straight as it can be when I cut. I never ever mentioned anything in that regards, I guess each reflects to it's own experiences and assumes others have done the same.

On weekends I got only few hours to work on my land, so I do not really have time  to sit and spend 12 minutes to resharpen the chain, and I have the means to purchase more than one chainsaw, that is the reason I have 3.  So, at nights after supper is over, if I got any energy left, I do sharpen the chains and get them ready for the weekend if weather allows me to do maximum of 3 hours of cutting.

And yes, hand filing provide the best results.
LogMaster LM2 with Kubota V1305 Diesel conversion.
There is a price for everything in life!!!  No free lunches!
Retired US Army.

Andyshine77

Quote from: MRowsh on June 10, 2014, 12:17:30 PM
One gentlemen diagnosed my issue correctly. Sand and dirt in the bark!  I have been cutting very close to ground to save as much wood as I can. And as I said, after dropping 4 good size trees had to get the back up chain saw.  Now I have two back up chain saws.  So, no need to take time and resharpen.

The HF grainder/sharpner works good for me, and cuts as straight as it can be when I cut. I never ever mentioned anything in that regards, I guess each reflects to it's own experiences and assumes others have done the same.

On weekends I got only few hours to work on my land, so I do not really have time  to sit and spend 12 minutes to resharpen the chain, and I have the means to purchase more than one chainsaw, that is the reason I have 3.  So, at nights after supper is over, if I got any energy left, I do sharpen the chains and get them ready for the weekend if weather allows me to do maximum of 3 hours of cutting.

And yes, hand filing provide the best results.

What work for you, works.  :)

Do keep in mind, having a properly cutting chain can save hours, so to me the 5 to 10 minutes it takes to sharpen one, is time well spent. Now taking extra chains is a different story, that's what I do as well.     
Andre.

John Mc

Quote from: MRowsh on June 10, 2014, 12:17:30 PM
The HF grainder/sharpner works good for me, and cuts as straight as it can be when I cut. I never ever mentioned anything in that regards, I guess each reflects to it's own experiences and assumes others have done the same.

My apologies, since I'm the one who got us off on the "cutting on a curve" tangent. That's what I get for following and responding to several threads at the same time about chainsaws not cutting properly.  The "not cutting straight" comment must have been from somewhere else, and I confused the threads when responding.

John Mc
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

HolmenTree

Quote from: MRowsh on June 10, 2014, 12:17:30 PM
One gentlemen diagnosed my issue correctly. Sand and dirt in the bark!  I have been cutting very close to ground to save as much wood as I can. And as I said, after dropping 4 good size trees had to get the back up chain saw.  Now I have two back up chain saws.  So, no need to take time and resharpen.
So I wonder who that gentlemen is? :D

Only being able to fell 4 good sized trees before sharpening doesn't sound right, even with some sand in the bark.......unless your cutting on a sandy beach ???
I think you may be filing too low into the cutter's gullet making too much hook in the side plate making a weak thin cutting edge. Reduce the angles a bit and you'll sharpen a lot less and not need those 2 backup saws.
Seems you may be sharpening for quick cookie cutting cuts
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

JohnG28

Stihl MS361, 460 & 200T, Jonsered 490, Jonsereds 90, Husky 350 & 142, Homelite XL and Super XL

CTYank

Couple of points of interest.

If tree bark is dirty where you're going to cut, you can remove that bark with an axe or draw-knive. Longer-term you could use semi-chisel chains rather than full chisel.

Is the source of the problem at the b&c end, not the power-head? Seems so. Then, I'd find better use of $1100. And, see to it that the power heads are fully ready for duty.

Months back, bud & I did a side-by-side with HF grinder (his) and $100 NT Oregon-clone grinder (mine). Not meaning to ruffle any feathers, but we both concluded that at any price, the HF grinder was a waste of space, and effort. It was pretty simple to get consistent results, with min. metal removal, with the NT. The HF was random, suitable only for removing rocking damage.

Regardless, a properly-filed chain is preferable to ground. Period. IMHO, the simplest, most consistent way to file saw chain is with Granberg's guide. Conducive to removing min. metal. Depth gauges are trivially simple to set with a flat file in that guide.

Being a cussed Yankee, I'd tend to direct my hard-earned bucks toward the most cost-effective solutions, to get the best yield. No shelf-queens, please. They work up to their potential, or they gone.
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

Andyshine77

Yank that was an excellent post. I think you hit the nail on the head.

Far too often people try to compensate for chain sharpening incipience with more power. I can cut nearly anything with my 346 and a good chain.

If possible, could some of you using the HF grinder take a couple clear pictures of one tooth freshly sharpened on the grinder?
Andre.

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