How should I calculate a fair value for tree service trees? Lumber vs fire wood

[Small Slick]

I am new to the hobby and the Forum and I apologize for not understanding the search function well; so please forgive me.  I contacted a tree service that is only a few miles from where I work regarding what they do with the trees they remove.  I am building a log cabin and would like to make much of the tables, benches and such in the cabin, but I don't have a specific cut list or species in mind to use.

Right now the guy has several what sound to be nice red oak logs and walnut logs that are kind of in his way and he wants to get rid of them.  When I asked what he does with these types of trees, he said he sells them to guys like me who make stuff.  I expressed to him that I don't know a lot about log value but that I was looking to get them as economically as possible.

I am willing to pay for the logs and want to make him an offer but I really don't know what to offer him.  I understand there will be hidden problems with yard trees and I have no idea about how to grade them so I was considering going about this from a different angle.

Long story short, is there an equation to convert logs into cords of wood?  Fire wood is a very big deal in western WI and I have to at least come close to what they would be worth in fire wood.  If fire wood sells for $50 a face cord and I can offer him $30 a face cord for logs, that might get this deal done.

So, any way to convert a log on the ground to a face cord of stacked fire wood?

John

[red oaks lumber]

welcome slick
  hardwood pulp is selling for around $60 per cord 4x4x8 and you can get just under 3 face cords per cord. keep in mind most tree removal guys are paid for the job and the wood to them is free.

[beenthere]

slick
A full cord of wood (4 x 4 x 8') has about 85 cuft. of solid wood (estimate).
http://woodheat.org/cord-wood.html

So you can use your HS math and figure the cuft in a log (radius squared times 'pie' times length all in feet) and divide by 85 to get a good idea how many "cords" are in a log. Use a radius (1/2 of diameter) at the small end.
That should satisfy your comfort level on your side of the deal.

Log quality can be estimated by looking at the bark on the tree. Not often will you find high quality logs in yards, but it can happen. Rough bark, bark with blemishes or scars, or holes are signs of poor quality wood underneath.

[Small Slick]

slick
A full cord of wood (4 x 4 x 8') has about 85 cuft. of solid wood (estimate).
http://woodheat.org/cord-wood.html

So you can use your HS math and figure the cuft in a log (radius squared times 'pie' times length all in feet) and divide by 85 to get a good idea how many "cords" are in a log. Use a radius (1/2 of diameter) at the small end.
That should satisfy your comfort level on your side of the deal.

I really didn't do well in HS math as you will be able to tell. I tried to make it simple so assuming a 20" small end. I took 10x10x3.142x10'. That is 3,142 / 85 is 36.96.  Is that to say it is about 37% of a full cord?  If a cord sells for $60 then is 60x.37 what I should use for a baseline price?

[beenthere]

slick
Close, except need the radius in feet, so your 10" radius would be 10/12 ft or 0.8333. 
Square that for a value of 0.6944, then mulitply by 3.142 to get an area on the end of the log of 2.182 sqft. Then times 10' length for a cubic foot log volume total of 21.82 cuft.
Convert to cords or 21.82/85 = 0.2567 to get around 1/4 of a cord in that log.

$60 times 0.2567 = $15 worth of wood in the log.

Make sense? (check my math too, as I may have missed something).   

[Small Slick]

I now see how it is done. It dawned on me that you said "all done in feet" after I responded. Does anyone have an opinion on if establishing a price this way is fair?

John

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Small Slick.

[Small Slick]

Thanks for the welcome.

[r.man]

Welcome and good luck Small Slick. Do you own a metal detector?

[Small Slick]

I did buy a bounty hunter II and haven't found metal in a tree with it yet. I did find some with my band though.

Does any one think it is good/bad or weird that I am basing the value of logs on fire wood?

[beenthere]

Don't find it weird at all.  Poke some prices at the tree guy and see if he will sell. The more you get experience sawing logs the sooner you will gain the experience needed to pick the good ones out and also have a better feeling for what you want to pay for those logs. Toss the moving of those logs to your mill in that mix too.
If you are low ball, let the tree guy counter your offer.
But basically, I think they are just firewood value at best and as said, free to the tree guy. He has to get rid of them, one way or another.

[Ianab]

Does any one think it is good/bad or weird that I am basing the value of logs on fire wood?

You need to start some place, and that's the other potential market for the logs.

Now it may be that you can get them for less, because you take the whole log, no extra processing or work. Or you may need to pay a small premium over firewood price to ensure you get the logs.

But like I said, you need to start some place with your pricing.

Ian

[LeeB]

Another option now thar you know how to convert to firewood volume, ask him to quote you a price and see if you are willing to pay what he wants. He may come down on what he's asking, but if you offer more than he wanted, he will not likely tell you he will take less.

[customsawyer]

Welcome to the forum. Be sure to check the butt end of the logs and see if there is any mineral stain. 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Most of the tree service logs I get, I get for free.
I do buy some very nice logs from them......but the logs have to be very good.

First of all, they have already got paid to take this log.
Next, you have to take in consideration the metal in these yard trees your metal detector will not find.
Tree Service logs have to be a minimum of 14 inches on the small end before I buy.

The logs I buy, I pay 15 cents a board foot and not a penny more. Some logs I only pay 10-12 cents.
The logs I buy must be a minimum of 10 foot 6 inches in length.

Buy them as cheap was you can......they've already been paid for them and now it becomes a fuel factor of them driving around looking for a mill to buy them.

[GAB]

Small Slick:
Generally speaking; In negeotions, he who puts out the first number loses.  Tact, and diplomacy are very important traits. Low balling will insult some people and get you some not so good word of mouth publicity especially in small communities.
red oaks lumber said: "hardwood pulp is selling for around $60 per cord 4x4x8 and you can get just under 3 face cords per cord."  Since 1/3 of 48" or 4' is 16" then if a face cord is 16" deep then there are 3 face cords per 4'x4'x8' cord. If your facecord is only 12" or 1' deep then there are 4 face cords per cord of wood.
Education generally speaking is expensive.  Start small and keep an accurate record of all your costs.  Don't forget machinery depreciation, truck expenses if used to deliver, chain sharpening costs, fuel and bar oil, Ben Gay, Aleve, and your time, then sharpen you pencil and evaluate.  The price of firewood varies all over the country, and the colder the weather, in a long winter,the more a cord of seasoned firewood will command in the dead of winter.  You need math now more than ever.  Wishing you the best.  Gerald

[Small Slick]

Thank you for all the suggestions.  It seems like my main competition for these will be the fire wood market; every other house around here burns wood.  Seasoned fire wood sells here for about $50 a face cord or $150 a full cord.  Red Oaks from the Spooner area which is about 1.5 hours North of me said the mills are paying about $60 a cord for pulp.

Using the formula that Beenthere offered up, I will probably start by offering $30 a cord for everything good or bad logs.  Both my dad and brother have wood burners so I won't be wasting much money on logs that are not good.  I think the Tree Service guy will want more than that for his walnut and cherry.  I will probably have to pay more for those species.

I will use the fact that there will be metal in the wood and that I can pick the logs up myself, all he has to do is get them to his place.

Anyone see any major flaws with this logic?  Is the offer to low or maybe to high?

John

[mesquite buckeye]

Depending upon your location, lots of times you can get tree service guys to drop off logs at your place so they don't have a pile of logs lying around their yard. They only have to deal with them one time that way instead of drop off and deal with having a guy pick them up and load them again. ;D

[NWP]

How about asking him what he would take for them and starting there?

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I found this discussion on BF in a cord of wood.
May help a little.


https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=29126.0

[rph816]

I've found that a case of beer, a pile of freshly sawn lumber, and a trailer ready to make their life as easy as possible go a long way.  As previously mentioned, unless they are really plugged in, most tree removal services have already gotten paid for the removal and view logs/brush as a byproduct that, at most, they break even to get rid of.  Guys that have access to saw/pulp/mulch mills are already "selling" what they can, if you provide somebody a free and CONVENIENT way to off-load a couple tons that they are otherwise responsible for, things start moving. 

Some tips, if you are able to swing the "come get it" arrangement: (1) always have the trailer ready, (2) get to know what support equipment they run and be prepared to fill in the gaps as far as loading is concerned, (3) make sure you communicate clearly on what you can and can't take and get it picked up promptly, (4) drop off that favorite case/bottle/gift-card around christmas. - Ryan

[Small Slick]

It looks like the tree service guy and I might be too far apart on pricing.  I met him on his job site today for a few minutes and still couldn't get him to decide on a price for his logs.

He did say that he figured to get $1.50 a board foot for the black walnut; oak wasn't nearly as big of a deal in his words.  I know of a place where I can get graded kiln dried black walnut for $5.95 a foot and only have to buy what I want.  So even if the oak and other species are half or a 1/4 of the price of walnut, that is probably more than I want to pay.  Considering I would have to haul it, mill it and deal with the metal, I don't know if it is going to work out.

Since I am an electrical contractor, I have lots of contacts with the local electrical utilities and will call them to see about trees to close to the power lines.

I have another contact who has some red oak he cut from the pasture next to his home who is willing to do shares if I saw it.  This guy gives the tops to a nursing home for fire wood and has about 10 saw logs he is storing in his shed.  What might be a good ratio for shares, 50-50?

Any thoughts on the above situations?

John

[Magicman]

The tree service guy is just trying to squeeze everything out of the logs that he can.  Sometimes you need to back off and let him squeeze.  That way he can realize that you ain't his lemon. 

[beenthere]

I have another contact who has some red oak he cut from the pasture next to his home who is willing to do shares if I saw it.  .................  What might be a good ratio for shares, 50-50?

Generally, advice is to not try to "share" or split up the wood as you are thinking.
If splitting the wood, then decide ahead of time which logs you get and which logs are his. Saves a lot on the decision as to which board is his and which board is yours. i.e. boards are not equal in size nor equal in quality.

Transportation of logs to your mill by your contact, or by you? Seems general consensus is for you to own what you saw, or that you are sawing at a price for someone else. Try not to mix the two.

But in the end, do what feels the best for you to be happy. ;)

[Small Slick]

Beenthere, that is some good info to ponder.  MM I like the lemon analagy.  I was thinking the same thing about the boards and such.  I will probably meet him to discuss and what I want is to seperate the logs: his vs mine.

I am building a trailer for my LT15 and would bring it to the site and load my logs on my trailer.  Then saw his logs at his site and then leave with my logs.

Is 50-50 still a good split?  By the way, I think the local mill wants $80 for nice white oak logs 16"x16'.  I also own collectivley with my family 160 acres of mixed hardwood.  However, it has really steep hills and I am not a logger by any stretch.

John