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Sharpening band mill blades

Started by JHEPP08, October 12, 2014, 07:29:35 PM

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Chuck White

If you decide to buy a sharpener and setter, keep track of how many blades you sharpen with it and you'd be surprised how quickly you would be at the "break-even" point where the equipment doesn't owe you anything.

I bought mine for $2,455.00 and just figured what resharp charged ($7.00) per blade and when I sharpened my 350th blade the sharpener and setter didn't owe me anything.

I was just figuring the sharpening, not the shipping, otherwise the break-even point would have been much sooner!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Dave Shepard

It isn't that simple, however. You have to figure in your opportunity cost, which is how much money are you not making when you are sharpening? You have to put a $ per hour figure on those 350 bands, and add that to the $2455.00, then figure out where you are. You will obviously have to sharpen more bands to hit break even, which of course will have increased your opportunity cost. We might need calculus to figure that one out.  :D So, that's a lot of bands just to break even, never mind actually profit from doing your own sharpening. I contend that unless you really enjoy it, and wish to do it as a hobby to keep you away from the barroom, then it is very hard to financially justify sharpening your own bands. You may have other justifications, which is an individual choice. I'd like to hear how many bands one person can clean, sharpen, and set in one hour.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Peter Drouin

The Wood Mizer setter and sharpener I have cost $ 4500.00. With shipping and Wood Mizer doing the job is $100.00 a box of ten. So 45 boxes of blades and It's paid for.
I did that in no time, But I'm full time at it too. Now I can set and sharpen 10 blade In an hr. So I make $100.00 an hr.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Magicman

Wow, 6 minutes per blade.  That ain't bad for someone that is grit free.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Peter Drouin

Quote from: Magicman on October 16, 2014, 09:30:43 PM
Wow, 6 minutes per blade.  That ain't bad for someone that is grit free.   ;D



:D :D :D :D smiley_thumbsup
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

barbender

Quote from: Magicman on October 16, 2014, 09:30:43 PM
Wow, 6 minutes per blade.  That ain't bad for someone that is grit free.   ;D
:D :D
Too many irons in the fire

Peter Drouin

Well, sometimes 10 min If I have to go around 2 times.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

hamish

Quote from: Dave Shepard on October 16, 2014, 08:21:13 PM
It isn't that simple, however. You have to figure in your opportunity cost, which is how much money are you not making when you are sharpening? You have to put a $ per hour figure on those 350 bands, and add that to the $2455.00, then figure out where you are. You will obviously have to sharpen more bands to hit break even, which of course will have increased your opportunity cost. We might need calculus to figure that one out.  :D So, that's a lot of bands just to break even, never mind actually profit from doing your own sharpening. I contend that unless you really enjoy it, and wish to do it as a hobby to keep you away from the barroom, then it is very hard to financially justify sharpening your own bands. You may have other justifications, which is an individual choice. I'd like to hear how many bands one person can clean, sharpen, and set in one hour.

Unless you are milling as an employee with no personal cost directly related to the operation, then you have a point, somewhat.

The degree of sawyer varies greatly, along with ones current status/environment.

Most people do not automatically associate a dollar value to there own time when running a business, wages yes, but not time.

If one were to do so all aspect of the business would have to be valuated, and one would be broke.  Care to add a dollar figure to fueling, maintenance, accounting etc.... all parts of doing business?

The average 12' band up here costs $25-30, a professional re-sharp $17.  I can clean set, sharpen and set 5 bands an hour.  I don't make $85 an hour sawing or at my day job.

I bought my sharpener used and make my own pinneywoods setter, total capital investment $536.
Norwood ML26, Jonsered 2152, Husqvarna 353, 346,555,372,576

redbeard

Bought the Cooks sharpener and single setter and I  have already seen a huge savings in cost and blade life. Iam able to use certain blades for different type milling Jobs. With Kelly doing the setting and I clean & sharpen we got it down to 10 min. Per blade. I actually look forward to sharpening. Although I have only been doing it for Two months. Looking  at my Books 8 years averaging 1500 a year  on blade buying and sharpening. Iam glad I finally pulled the trigger.
Whidbey Woodworks and Custom Milling  2019 Cooks AC 3662T High production band mill and a Hud-son 60 Diesel wide cut bandmill  JD 2240 50hp Tractor with 145 loader IR 1044 all terrain fork lift  Cooks sharp

FarmingSawyer

I think too there is a value on convenience.... For me, I have to travel for 2hrs round trip to get bands sharped and there is a 2 week turnaround. If I send bands away the cost rises, but I still have to travel to the UPS store which is 20 min away, and those bands can take longer than 2 weeks to come back. SO then I'm forced to maintain a high inventory of bands and have even more $$$ out. That's great when the sawing is thick or i am working a big project of my own....but in leaner times.... I'm thinking a setter and sharpener is the way to go in my rural situation.
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

Chuck White

Quote from: Dave Shepard on October 16, 2014, 08:21:13 PM
It isn't that simple, however. You have to figure in your opportunity cost, which is how much money are you not making when you are sharpening? You have to put a $ per hour figure on those 350 bands, and add that to the $2455.00, then figure out where you are. You will obviously have to sharpen more bands to hit break even, which of course will have increased your opportunity cost. We might need calculus to figure that one out.  :D So, that's a lot of bands just to break even, never mind actually profit from doing your own sharpening. I contend that unless you really enjoy it, and wish to do it as a hobby to keep you away from the barroom, then it is very hard to financially justify sharpening your own bands. You may have other justifications, which is an individual choice. I'd like to hear how many bands one person can clean, sharpen, and set in one hour.

Usually it takes me about 15-20 minutes per blade to clean, set and sharpen 1 blade.

That is an average though, depending on how grungy the blades are.

I normally do my sharpening after supper, so I wouldn't be sawing anyway, so I might as well be doing something!  ;)
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

bandmiller2

In the mid 90's I worked with an old fella on his new LT-70 three phase. He had a mild stroke and the little switches were a challenge. Turned into a close friendship. He was dyed in the wool orange, if they sold breakfast cereal he'd be eating it. He used resharp and was skeptical of anything else. I convinced him to try mysharp bands and he couldn't tell the difference. We could beat our gums forever on this subject, boils down to each of us have our own way, new guys have to figure it out for their operation. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

pineywoods

I set and sharpen my own and do a few for neighbors. If you have or might purchase one of the older wm sharpeners (mine's 19 years old) here's a few tips. The setter sets one tooth at a time, then you have to invert the blade and do the other side. A small chunk of scrap metal, 2 bolts and 30 minutes is all that's needed to convert to a 2 sided setter. Cuts setting time in half.
I don't know when the upgrade to the sharpener occurred, but there are some differences between mine and later versions. Biggest change is a larger grinder wheel motor. 19 years ago, everbody ran .035 bands, now it's .045 or even .055 blades, which really need a little more power. I'm in the process of upgrading mine to a 1/3 hp 110 volt motor. The original water pumps had a fairly short service life, probably due to metal filings in the lube water. A cheap aquarium pump will work just as well. Put a good stout magnet in a plastic bag and place it in the water pan. It will collect most of the filings.. 
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Dave Shepard

Quote from: hamish on October 16, 2014, 10:00:36 PM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on October 16, 2014, 08:21:13 PM
It isn't that simple, however. You have to figure in your opportunity cost, which is how much money are you not making when you are sharpening? You have to put a $ per hour figure on those 350 bands, and add that to the $2455.00, then figure out where you are. You will obviously have to sharpen more bands to hit break even, which of course will have increased your opportunity cost. We might need calculus to figure that one out.  :D So, that's a lot of bands just to break even, never mind actually profit from doing your own sharpening. I contend that unless you really enjoy it, and wish to do it as a hobby to keep you away from the barroom, then it is very hard to financially justify sharpening your own bands. You may have other justifications, which is an individual choice. I'd like to hear how many bands one person can clean, sharpen, and set in one hour.

Unless you are milling as an employee with no personal cost directly related to the operation, then you have a point, somewhat.

The degree of sawyer varies greatly, along with ones current status/environment.

Most people do not automatically associate a dollar value to there own time when running a business, wages yes, but not time.

If one were to do so all aspect of the business would have to be valuated, and one would be broke.  Care to add a dollar figure to fueling, maintenance, accounting etc.... all parts of doing business?

The average 12' band up here costs $25-30, a professional re-sharp $17.  I can clean set, sharpen and set 5 bands an hour.  I don't make $85 an hour sawing or at my day job.

I bought my sharpener used and make my own pinneywoods setter, total capital investment $536.

Why wouldn't you figure in the time for maintenance, fueling, accounting? It's all part of the big picture, and those who don't pay attention to it are likely subsidizing their operation, or are at risk of failing. I charge $100 per hour for milling. There are expenses that have to come out of that for actual operation of the mill, such as wear and tear, fuel and bands. But then there is the time off the clock at night or on the weekend shoveling sawdust out from under the mill, bundling slabs or plowing snow in the winter. I have to make sure that I get enough money while the saw is running to cover the time when I'm not "getting paid" so to speak. I don't think it matters whether it is you doing it yourself, or you are paying an employee. As has been mentioned, how one uses their spare time is their own choice, but that choice must reflect what other activities you could be doing instead. Like Magicman, my time is worth more to me to do other things than what I would make sharpening bands.

Quote from: FarmingSawyer on October 17, 2014, 05:37:49 AM
I think too there is a value on convenience.... For me, I have to travel for 2hrs round trip to get bands sharped and there is a 2 week turnaround. If I send bands away the cost rises, but I still have to travel to the UPS store which is 20 min away, and those bands can take longer than 2 weeks to come back. SO then I'm forced to maintain a high inventory of bands and have even more $$$ out. That's great when the sawing is thick or i am working a big project of my own....but in leaner times.... I'm thinking a setter and sharpener is the way to go in my rural situation.

Have you tried Wood-Mizer for your band needs? They will cut you any size band you need. They use FedEx, and you can schedule a pickup at your residence, and they will deliver to your door. I don't think I've ever had to wait more than a week total to get my bands back. They are great on turnaround, and on all shipping, in fact. I ordered a part at 2:00 PM yesterday, and it was on my front step this afternoon when I got home. :)  You may find that you would prefer to have the flexibility, and get the equipment anyway, but it's worth crunching the numbers, especially if you don't use a lot of bands.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

FarmingSawyer

Quote from: Dave Shepard on October 17, 2014, 05:10:21 PM
Have you tried Wood-Mizer for your band needs? They will cut you any size band you need. They use FedEx, and you can schedule a pickup at your residence, and they will deliver to your door. I don't think I've ever had to wait more than a week total to get my bands back. They are great on turnaround, and on all shipping, in fact. I ordered a part at 2:00 PM yesterday, and it was on my front step this afternoon when I got home. :)  You may find that you would prefer to have the flexibility, and get the equipment anyway, but it's worth crunching the numbers, especially if you don't use a lot of bands.

I just ordered my 1st 2 WM bands....I did this as part of a test...... I ordered several different makes of bands. I used to run Lenox because that was what the mill manufacturer sold...then I upgraded to Timberwolfs and have been happy with them...but I was cutting mostly pine. I ordered a batch of bands recently and milling curly maple and some oak the set was taken right out of the bands within 300bf..... Not a great track record. That and several new TW bands developed an odd distortion where they won't lay flat in a loop and so the sharpening service I use won't sharp them....It doesn't happen to all bands and I'm trying to keep better track of the situation so I can tell if it's my mill or how I mill or something else.

Meanwhile I decided to try a couple of different makes after hearing about them on FF. However...I was unimpressed with WM service when the bands were sold me....very little questions asked and indifference when I suggested what I would be sawing. 13'6" wasn't stock for them, but they did fedex the bands and I got them 5 days later. I will try them this weekend....but I am not impressed with the price for 2 bands..... Timberwolfs, which are spendy enough and a couple other brands were significantly less when bought individually....Discounts for multiple bands purchased yes...but no penalty for buying less than a given amount. All I have to say is WM bands had better really be something special for me to switch. I'll be cutting some really hard elm with 3 or 4 passes each band to see how they go....Elm with this grain has always given the softer TW bands a run for their money.

The other thing I'm leary of, now, is switching to, say, WM for sharpening because I would have to scrap all my other new-ish bands as they won't sharpen them. Likewise with the remaining Lenox and Cook's bands..... I'm keeping my mind open and I'll go with the better band 1st and worry about sharpening 2nd. I'm still feeling like sharpening in-house would be right for me......
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

Dave Shepard

I've only run WM DoubleHard bands, so I can't compare them to any of the other brands. I've had really good luck with them. I've cut a lot of tough stuff on the manual LT40's with 1.25"x.045" 4° and 10° bands. Black locust, white oak, pignut hickory (really tough stuff), knotty softwoods. If you can get enough tension on an .045" band, you should be able to cut pretty much any log around. I'm not sure why the bands lost their set in the hard maple, I've never encountered that before.

You'll have to ask ReSharp, but I think they will sharpen any band, but it will be the WM profile when they are done.

This elm had been laying in the millyard for a year before I got to it. It sawed up very well with a 10° DoubleHard.



 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

ely

I sharpen my bands for the same reason I saw my own wood and build my own house...satisfaction...if I had to pay myself for all the stuff I do, I really would be broke.

bandmiller2

Well said Ely. It would be interesting to compare the number of sharpenings a band will endure commercial sharpening service vs. home sharp. Time is money and commercial sharp services hog off enough so they clean up to their cam without going around a second time. They use coolant so no burn but I think you loose a lot of band life. When I sharpen a band that is just slightly dull I can remove the bare minimum of material for a keen edge. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Dave Shepard

IIRC, WM ReSharp cleans, initial grinds, sets, then finish grinds each band. Mine fail from flexing long before they are wear out.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

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