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Pulling Stumps with Block and Tackle

Started by landrand, March 01, 2006, 07:44:05 PM

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landrand

I'm getting ready to clear 4 or 5 acres of property that is comprise mostly of 10"-16" diameter jack pine. After removing the tree's/brush, I need to pull the stumps.  I have a Ford 655D 75HP backhoe, but it takes anywhere from 10-20 minutes and sometimes longer to dig out and pull a single stump.  I've been thinking what would be the easiest and cheapest way to pull several hundred stumps with the equipment I already have.  I could rent an excavator, but that would get costly.  I thought about how the old farmers cleared their farms with nothing but a team of horses.  How they were able to clear hundreds of acres of land without hydraulic power is an incredible feat I must say. 

I initially thought I would just push the whole tree over with my backhoe and that would cause the stump to pop out of the ground.  Yes it does work, unfortunately, many times the jack pine tree will split at the base of the tree and often wreck the first 3'-6' of the sawlog.  I have a sawmill and plan to saw most of these logs into timber.  I'd rather not waste the best part of the log.

Anyway, in the attachment I've drawn a potential way to pull the stumps using block and tackle and a John Deere 100HP farm tractor.  Do you guys think this will work?  I'm proposing to use several blocks attached to several trees which will provide more mechanical advantage as well as to prevent the standing trees from being pulled over as well.  Since I live in Northern Michigan and have about 3' of snow on the ground, I'll have to wait a couple more months before I give this a try.  Any idea's or comments?

Dan_Shade

looks like a lot of trouble.  I'd try to set up a tripod and a chain fall before I went through that trouble....
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

GareyD

The best way I've found to pull stumps is with a tractor, heavy chain and an old tractor rim...can you say lift and separate ;)
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends, if they're okay, then it's you.

Frank_Pender

You need a  stump puller, but I do not want to sell mine. 8)
Frank Pender

Dan_Shade

what are the details of your method, Garey?
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

landrand

I initially thought my backhoe was underpowered because it was so hard to pull these jackpine stumps.  My neighbor has a backhoe as well and he mentioned he also has a tough time pulling these stumps.  If you haven't seen a jackpine, they grow into the ground like a carrot.  I've pulled some jackpine stumps that go straigt down 5' or 6'.  Even after I break all the roots around the stump with the hoe, popping the stump out takes alot of work.  It's like pulling a tooth.

I bet I'll have well over 500 stumps to pull.  Hauling around a tripod and chain hoist would be a very tough task.  Besides, if a 16,000lb backhoe has a tough time pulling the stump out, the chain hoist doesn't seem like the way to go.

Using the block and tackle wouldn't be very difficult to setup.    Once I chain the blocks to the trees, they would remain in this configuration as I pull as many stumps as I can reach with the 100' or so cable. 

I just can see being able to use the tractor by itself to pull out the stump without some kind of mechanical advantage.  I envision just spinning the wheels.

I thought about rolling a short 18" diameter round oak log near the stump I wanted to pull. Drape the cable over it to apply even more leverage and up motion to the pull. 

scsmith42

Personally, I'd suggest that you wait a year or so to let some of the roots rot, then rent a dozer and pop the stumps out with the blade or ripper shank.

I use a Cat D8 with a ripper.  It's quite effective.

Using a block and tackle will take you forever. 

Good luck.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

landrand

I do have a double shank deep ripper.  I never thought about using that.    Wonder if it is strong enough to break the roots on both sides of the stump without breaking the ripper.   I could run the tractor over the stump and try to break the roots on two sides.  Another run perpendicular to the first would break the roots on the adjacent sides. 

Rockn H

landrand, I know what you mean about a large tap root.  If a 100hp tractor can't get enough traction to up root it with a straight pull I don't know if I would go the block and tackle route.  There would be a lot of pressure on your tie points and if they all weren't sharing the load evenly I sure would hate to see something break.  I would give Gary D suggestion a try.  We use the same principle for pulling post all the time.  Think of it as a carrot like you said.  Pull it straight up.  I always think of pine stumps like a post 8' in the ground. :D  Having enough footprint to keep your rim ,or what ever your using for leverage, from sinking would be my main concern I think.  I've used backhoes to dig pine stumps and 4x4 trucks to pull some stumps to, but if I had as many as you I would think about having them ground up or using a dozer with a ripper or rock blade.  There would be a lot less leveling and filling to do later.  ;D

Coon

First question:  Have you felled the trees yet?  If not I would say to leave an extra 6-12" on the stump for easier removal.  It is alot easier to push with a higher stump.  Don't even think of using such as that block and tackle system.... One of my neighbors thought the same thing and was using his tractor that had atleast 145 hp and front wheel assist.  Well the long story short he put so much torque on his back axles that he heated the axle bearings up and spun one that lead to the crown and pinion in the rear diff piling up.  Over a $10,000 touch for stupidity when another neighbor would have came and pushed out the stumps with his D8 or9 and it would have only taken about 2 1/2 jours max.
Brad.
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

Ianab

In the old days they didn't seem to be in a hurry, they could come back in 10 years and pull out the rotten stumps easy enough  ;) :D

You dont say what you are clearing for or what your time frame is?
If you are replanting forest, leave the stumps in place.. they will be gone in 10 years, about the time the new trees are starting to look like a  forest.
If you want to clear it for pasture, same, leave it for a couple of years, stumps will come out much easier with your backhoe.

If it needs to be clear NOW, then hire a D8 or a 20 ton excavator for the day. Sure they cost a bit per hour, but they take out small tree stumps as fast as they can drive up to them. Otherwise you fight them with winches and stuff, takes all day to do 10  :(

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

thecfarm

I was going to suggest to let them rot abit,too.What are you going to do with 500 stumps? That would be quite a pile to look at for the next 50 years.Would take alot of room to pile up that many stumps.I'm claiming back the old pasture and I just leave the stumps and mow around them for about 5 years.They come out real easy than.I have no easy way to remove the stumps,takes to long and I have way to many rocks.One stump would produce a couple hours worth of rocks.Just as soon as the air hits the roots,rocks start to grow.I have tried to burn a few stumps I have dug out.Only a 10 inch tree and it did not burn to well.Had too much dirt on it.I'm still looking at a few stumps I pulled out from 10 years ago.Stumps seems to hate to rot out of the ground.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Minnesota_boy

I can see that many of you haven't had to deal with jack pine stumps.  Jack pine is a little different than other pines.  The stumps don't rot much.  A year or 2 won't do much and even 10 is minimal.  You might be looking at 50 to 80 years and some of them will still be hard to pull.  They sometimes get a solid pitch core that just won't rot.

I've pulled those stumps and my suggestion would be to hire a large dozer or excavator.  If your time and safety are worth anything, hire it done.  I've broken many chains trying to get a few of them out.  I've spent plenty of time trying to remove them with a crawler loader.  They just don't come out easy.

Comparing them to a carrot is interesting.  Think of a carrot 8" in diameter that is still 5" in diameter down 3 feet into the ground, with side shoots to help it  keep its grip.  That's what a jackpine stump is like.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

bull

Hire in a one of those new grinder/tillers --- look in lumbermens journal to see them..  they grind the stump and the first few inches of soil great for pastures... If you want working crop land you are going to have to remove the stumps and fill the holes...  a larges excavator sound like the deal $ 250 - $500 per hour but a good operator can do an acre or more a day and have it resonably ready for tillage...... good luck....   Ive been removing Oak stumps w/ my Kuboata M6800.   Stumps are in the 15 - 24 inch range, did about 15.. one root ball was 7 ft across and 5 ft deep....  I do have an excavtor coming in, in a week or 2..for the rest... No sense in killing my machine....... too much work...

Ed

Get a frost hook for the backhoe, much safer than trying to go around then with the tractor & ripper. No matter how you do take them out, it's going to be slow.

Ed

scsmith42

I'm not familiar with Jack Pine (interesting info by Minnesoto_boy though), but sometimes I'll push a loblolly pine or oak over with a dozer (stump and all), and then cut the truck for logs.  The weight of the tree helps to bring the stump out of the ground.  It's much easier to do when the tree has a lot of leaves on it (more top weight).

The last time I did this was near one of the horse barns, and I couldn't get the dozer in.  So I took my backhoe with a 12" x 4' cribbing bucket on it and cut slots in the ground around the truck.  I then pushed it over with the boom.

I've also done this out in the pastures by circling the tree with a 5' ripper shank, and then pushing the tree over with the bulldozer blade.

A large trackhoe with a thumb would probably be my first choice, followed by a large dozer with a ripper.  If you're on a budget and need to use what you've got (as most of us are!), try the backhoe method described above.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

J.Hercules

Heres a few pics on how we did it in 1920 and how we do it Today in the South.  These are long leaf and slash pine stumps.  The first 2 pics are using dynamite and the last pic is current. This machine with a good operator can pull 200 stumps a day easily.  Prior to the use of dynamite the company did use a block and tackle puller powered by mules.  Some of the old farmers in the area were kids at this time and they say the rigging was done so the stump would be twisted out of the ground in a cork screw fashion. Unfortunately I have never come across any pics of that era.






Jim

DanG

Minn.-boy, it sounds like y'all have fat lightered up there and didn't even know it. ??? ::)  Down here, you would just call one of those companies that harvests pine stumps and sells them to the gunpowder plant.  I'm not sure if any money changes hands in these operations, or which way it goes if it does.

From what I've heard about the "Fatwood Fire Starter" business up there, y'all might be sitting on a gold mine. ;) 8) 8)


Hmmmm!  J.Hercules, ain't you the guy that ol' Tom recruited for us a couple of years ago?  If I remember correctly, you were/are involved somehow in the bizness of collecting stumps.  I've been wondering whatever happened to you.  Welcome back! :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

IL Bull

After I dig the around a tree with my backhoe I use a chain hoist and the boom of the back hoe to pull and push the tree over at the same time.  after the tree is over I cut the tree off of the stump.
   I then use my skid steer and pallet forks to knock the dirt off of the stump.  Then pile the branchs off the top of the tree and stick your stumps on top.  
   Then have a hot dog roast in a couple of months.  Eat hot dogs and drink beer.   8)    
Case Skid Steer,  Ford Backhoe,  Allis WD45 and Burg Manual Sawmill

rebocardo

landrand,

I do not see what state you are from, but, I know in central Maine you can rent very heavy equipment such as 30 ton Hough front end loaders for $500 a day and they drop it off and pick it up.  I imagine they can lift a stump pretty much out of the ground with little trouble as we have used them to pick up tractor/trailers off the ground and yank them out of the mud.

Probably not as effective as a bigger dozer, but, carrying and piling the uprooted stumps might be easier.

One option might be to check into hiring (or buying) a local Bobcat operator with a stump grinding (chain) flail. Ideal for smaller sites and certainly much quicker then trying to pull one up with a tractor.


Tom

J.Hercules is a Forester with the "dynamite" plant.  Though he has educated us in past posts that stumps aren't really used for that anymore, if the ever were.  :)   

I go for his last picture.  That looks like the way to go.  If It works for  Hercules, it should work for anybody.  That's what they do, dig stumps.  It sure wouldl be nice if he could dig up (pun intended) a film clip, that Jeff could put on here somewhere, of that machine at work.

landrand

I plan to fell the trees this spring.  I do like to leave at least 6" of stump above ground for easier pulling.  I would like to clear the field this summer for pasture.

Minnesota_boy is right about rotting jackpine stumps.  They are still tough to pull after they've been in the ground for five years.  For some reason, they don't rot that quick.

After I pull the stumps, I plan to just pile them up for a month and burn them.  They burn well.

I can easily push over these jackpine trees with by backhoe.  Unfortunately, the base of the tree usuall splits or breaks wasting the first 3-5' of good wood.  Besides, when you push a tree over, the base of the tree gets covered with sand.  Chainsaw blades and sawmill blades can't cut through sand without instant dulling of the blade.  Therefore, you have to clean the log before cutting.

Last year I got my 10,000lb JD tractor stuck in about 2' of peat muck swamp at the base of a 20' steep hill.  I tried to pull the tractor out with my backhoe with a straight cable betwen the backhone and tractor.  Not even close. I just spun the wheels on dry good ground.  I hooked up a simple two block and tackle system. I was able to pull the tractor out with ease.

Now the blocks, chain, and wire rope (3/4"-1") I intended to use are really heavy duty industrial strength.  I believe they would be strong enough to handle the force.   From what I was to calculate, using the proposed triple block and tackle setup would only apply 1/6 the actual force applied to the stump to the back of the tractor.  I seen some of the farm implements (plows, subsoilers) a 100HP farm tractor can safely pull.  How can a measly little jackpine stump take down a JD tractor with a block and tackle rig.

I think the trick is to apply some kind of twisting force to the stump.  When I pull the stumps with the backhoe, after cutting all the side roots, I normally have to work it loose and then apply a twisting force to fully break all the holding roots.  Then I'm able to lift the stump out.   The problem with the backhoe method, is you create a mess around the stump.  You have to scrape away the topsoil otherwise it gets buried beneath the sand subsoil.  You have to fill in the large whole.

I agree with most of the posts.  The best way to pull this many stumps is to rent an excavator or bulldozer.  Thats probably what I'll do, but it is more fun to think of ways I can do it with my $60,000 worth of equipment I already own.



J.Hercules

Thats correct Dan I am the fatlightered stumper from south Georgia.  Also as Tom remembers the stump plants never made dynamite, what is produced is wood rosin, which today is used in adhesives, food grade gums as in chewing gum and soft drink /sport drinks solutions that keep the flavor suspended in the water. More than 300 uses for the chemicals we make.

Back to pulling the stumps - a good excavator with a thumb and bucket would make quick work of your job plus cover the holes up as it goes if the cost for the job is not out of line with your budget.
Jim

brdmkr

I don't know if the prices are the same up there or not, but an excavator and operator go for 85.00/hour here.  They can pull a lot of stumps in a day.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

beenthere

What 10,000 lb Deere tractor do you have?

Have you tried the twisting technique, where a log or timber is chained to the stump, and pulled around the stump to twist it loose? I've only heard about it, and not tried it or seen it done.

Another thought, would be to rig a 'spade' type pushbar on the front end loader, and try to sever the tap root a foot or so below the surface. On the order of a spud with a sharpened tip. Seems that would slip through a green pine root without too much resistance. I've speared some stumps with my fork(s) on my tractor, and white pine can be split apart like firewood. If I had more that a 3000 lb Deere 4300, I think it would even be easier.

I'd sure keep in mind a stump grinder and what it would cost compared to 'pulling' up stumps with a long tap root. I don't see the efficiency or need to remove all that wood from the ground.  But 'ain't' my ground. :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

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