I have a question or 5 for those of you more knowledgeable than me...on wood burning stove for the inside of houses, what is the difference in the catalytic and non-catalytic stoves.
am I correct in assuming it is similar to the converters on cars that is supposed to clean up the smoke more for the environment.
I was looking through my moms new lehman bros. catalog when I seen these stoves. they were from france or someplace. looks real nice , just got me to thinking what I was going to replace my wood heater with in the future.
I think similar to cars only in the fact that there is ignition of the secondary gases from incomplete primary combustion.
I've a wood stove with a cat from Vermont Castings, and after a fire is going good, the cat. is warm, can start passing the off-gases through the cat. It ignites within the ceramic-like honeycomb channels and gives off a lot of extra heat.
All works fine if you want more heat (usually I don't out of that stove) and if the fly ash has been vacuumed off ahead of time.
I understand that they are delicate and can crumble easily, as well as they are expensive to replace. My stove is 14 yrs old, and don't even know if I can get a replacement cat. converter.
I have a Woodstock soapstone stove with the catalytic combuster. Going on 8 tears now and it's time for a new combuster the original is starting to crack. I use mostly dry wood. I have been very pleased with this stove and the lack of creosote.
I would say if your not forced to have one on a new stove in your area, do without. Wile they may work its just another layer of problems. Have good dry wood and manage your stove wisely and your good. Frank C.
Quote from: ely on January 08, 2015, 11:55:59 AM
what is the difference in the catalytic and non-catalytic stoves.
am I correct in assuming it is similar to the converters on cars that is supposed to clean up the smoke more for the environment.
Yes and no. It is basically the same as a catalytic converter in a car, however, it's not just to clean up the smoke for the environment. While that is one nice advantage of it, there are others as well. It also creates much more HEAT by burning those combustible gases that would otherwise be going up the chimney.
You have two types of stoves (well, 3 if you count "Hybrid's"), the Cat stoves, and the non Cat stoves. Both types of stoves have their own way of burning off the combustible gases that normally go up the chimney. Cat stoves do it by using the catalytic combuster that is in the stove. The advantage of this, is that it lowers the temperature at which the gases would start to burn. In a Cat stove, you can start burning all these gases when the temperature at the combuster reaches just over 500°.
A secondary burn, non Cat stove, relies on higher temperatures in the secondary burn to light off and burn those same gases. The temperature has to get up close to 1,100° in order for the gases to burn. If it doesn't get that high, all that wasted heat is going right up and out the chimney.
The nice thing about Cat stoves, is that you can burn them slower, while still being efficient, and capturing the heat out of the combustible gasses. Also, you can start burning these gasses much sooner than with a non Cat stove (it takes longer to reach 1,100° than it does to reach 500°.)
I personally like Cat stoves, and I have the same stove as Holmes. I've had it about 5 years now, and I burn mostly "wet" wood. (I shouldn't, but I'm guilty of not splitting and stacking early enough). Cat stoves are more finicky when it comes to dry/wet wood, and it will burn up the Combuster sooner by using wet wood. Mine is starting to crack and should be replaced. I already purchased a replacement, but I'm waiting until next season to change it, as I will "hopefully" be ahead with my wood by then, and will be burning dry wood finally.
My replacement Cat cost me $125.
If you don't want to mess with the inconvenience of changing out a catalytic combuster every 5+ years, then I'd suggest non Cat. I'll mention that changing one takes almost no time at all. However, you do need to clean them occasionally. I clean mine about once a month and I'm not too religious about that.
I tend to really smolder my fires, and burn very slowly as I like long burn times. If you are the type to burn hot and fast, I'd suggest non cat stoves. They both have they're place and they are both great designs, I think it just depends on which design fits your lifestyle and preferences better.
Thanks for the replies. It concerns me that they are fragile. I did sort of understand that if you aren't real particular about the things you burn it will have problems. I am just studying the what I call high end stoves because I will up grade when my box heater finally gives up... we have no restrictions on stoves here.
If your stove shopping, you may want to pay attention to stove efficiency, and burn times. We heat a 2400sqft 1900 farm house that is LOADED with double hung windows, sits amid a wind farm, with thousands of bare flat acres on 4 sides, and we sit under the jet stream most days. Suffice it to say, our wood stove gets a workout.
That said, how often you want to fuel it, and how much fuel you want to put in it, will become relevant after your install.
We run a late 70s wood stove, its got a small firebox, it does have a forced fan built into it, to recover allot of heat. It also moves through a mountain of wood, or should I say the house does.
We have a hybrid stove on order, because of the rate of which we move through wood, tired of getting up twice a night to feed it. Basically, Ive got what I found to be the most efficient stove I can find, ordered, to slow down the rate at which we move through wood.
So yes, it has a cat, I will happily deal with it. If we lived in warmer climate, smaller house, no wind, and endless supply of firewood, the stove we have would be great. Yesterday, it was -10F (static temp, been that way for most of the week) with gusts of 50mph...its a part time job keeping the house warm, if it was never colder than 40 degrees and we never had any wind, not a problem.
Neighbor 2 doors down, he and his son, who lives near by in a similar dwelling, both ran out of wood last year and where forced to buy propane, when it was $5-$7 a gallon. Both run inefficient stoves. Last winter here was long and cold, and they where just not prepared.
I keep about twice the amount of firewood on hand than I could use in a worst case scenario. We do have a full propane tank, and new furnace, we just dont like to use it (spelled el-cheapo !)
Quantity of firewood is no problem for me. I burn slabs from the mill and dead trees from the property. My house is very well insulated. I am wanting to go with a stove that looks great and burns well.
QuoteIve got what I found to be the most efficient stove I can find, ordered,
And will you name what stove that is? Just curious, so if you want to keep it a secret, that is ok. ;)
Look forward to hearing about it.
Quote from: ely on January 10, 2015, 09:15:02 AM
Thanks for the replies. It concerns me that they are fragile. I did sort of understand that if you aren't real particular about the things you burn it will have problems.
I wouldn't let that concern you, they really aren't "fragile" per say. Mine is starting to crumble in places (not major yet, but like I said I'll replace it next season) but it isn't causing any problems.
Remember, I'm one of those who are NOT particular about what I put in my stove. I'd love to say honestly that I burn only nice seasoned hardwoods but that is not the case. I burn mill scraps of white pine, I burn pine firewood that isn't seasoned properly, and I burn unseasoned hickory and white oak.
I really do intend to get ahead this year, but I've said that before too. I just want to point out that the cat stoves aren't fragile, and I hope I didn't give off the wrong impression.
If I had a non cat stove, I wouldn't burn any differently, and I think most would say that.
It can be a hard decision because really both styles are great, it's more personal preference, and a lot of people just go with whatever the stove they love comes with, not giving it much thought.
I personally won't go with a non cat stove, because I love the way I can burn mine low and slow and still be very efficient with it and burn off most of the gasses the smoke is holding.
I may go with a hybrid for my next stove if I ever upgrade. Currently, I'd buy the Woodstock Progress Hybrid and not look back.
As a side note, for my burning preferences, I will also stick with a soapstone stove, but that's a whole nother thread in itself.
Quote from: beenthere on January 10, 2015, 01:02:17 PM
QuoteIve got what I found to be the most efficient stove I can find, ordered,
And will you name what stove that is? Just curious, so if you want to keep it a secret, that is ok. ;)
Look forward to hearing about it.
Didnt think a shameless plug for a stove company was not necessary (dont recall the OP asking about brands), and mentioning brands, and models usually starts a pissing match. But if your going to ask..
Woodstock Progress Hybrid. There is a small stainless independent model made in Washington that is too small for us that is more efficient, like 90% and Blaze king has 2 stoves that are 1% more efficient, but I wanted a soap stone stove, so I traded 1% off for the soapstone, pretty much because blaze king does not have a competing product, uses dealers (there is not one near me, and they are pretty specific about their territories and where I have to travel to buy one) and folks rave about woodstocks customer service, and warranty. Unfortunately, the stove we ordered in October has yet to ship, and is alleged to ship in a week or two. Would hope it arrives before the heating season is over. Would have ordered it last winter, had I know they where going to run low on them.
Someone might find this handy...
EPA guide to stove peformance
http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf
You should be happy with your Woodstock stove when it finally arrives. The company has won all sorts of awards for their designs - which is probably why you're having to wait for yours. My sister and Brother-in-law bought a Woodstock stove a few years ago and are very happy with it. (they live a couple of hours from where they are made).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21659/DSC_0181.JPG)
Here is another soapstone option. This is our Tulikivi--the entire thing is made out of soapstone. These operate differently than a traditional stove. You start a fire and let it run full blast for 2-3 hours. Once the fire has burned out, you shut the whole thing down. What is crazy is that the outside temp of the unit reaches its highest temps about 2 hours after the fire is out. The soapstone mass holds the heat for days. These are not for everybody, but we love it. The top section is a wood-fired bake oven. Lots of great meals have come out of that. We rarely use our traditional oven from Oct--May.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21659/DSC_0183.JPG)
This is a pic of a fire directly in the bake oven. Get it up to the temp you need, dump the coals down the trap door in the back and throw dinner in.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21659/DSC_0063.JPG)
My BIL checking on a home made pizza!
Quote from: beenthere on January 08, 2015, 12:52:55 PM
My stove is 14 yrs old, and don't even know if I can get a replacement cat. converter.
I can't remember my stove's model name, but it's also owned by Vermont Castings. I just got a new catalyst for it from Amazon a couple of years ago. Lots of parts are still available. I also replaced the back inner wall, as my original was cracking.
One of the advances some wood stove manufacturers have made in recent years is designing for catlysts to be much more more easily replaceable. I was looking at one in a store a year or two ago that not much harder to replace than cleaning the lint trap in my dryer.
Quote from: John Mc on January 13, 2015, 05:49:28 PM
One of the advances some wood stove manufacturers have made in recent years is designing for catlysts to be much more more easily replaceable. I was looking at one in a store a year or two ago that not much harder to replace than cleaning the lint trap in my dryer.
I think the catalytic combuster that I just purchased from Woodstock, is a different material than the original from 5 years ago. It's supposed to be stronger, last longer, and burn cleaner, supposedly.... I can't remember where I read that from, so I may not be 100% correct, but just backing up your point about advancements in catalytic technology.
Blackfoot Griz -
Is that what's sometimes called a masonry heater? That type of thing is what would be in my house now, if I'd known about them 12 years ago when we were building the house.
@Windy_Acres (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24268) I like that soapstone stove you posted, and the price is not unreasonable compared to some of the others I have seen.
Quote from: thechknhwk on January 14, 2015, 09:49:37 AM
@Windy_Acres (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24268) I like that soapstone stove you posted, and the price is not unreasonable compared to some of the others I have seen.
Thanks, I kinda like Black Foots "furnace ?", that baby has got to be heavy !
Update, my stove shipped yesterday, got a bill of lading number today, its enroute, and should be at my local terminal tomorrow for me to pickup. I opted to pick it, for I got more time than money ! Hopefully, it is worth the weight (and the cost, its not one of the cheaper stoves, but you can spend allot more !)
Shipping weight shows over 800lbs. Guessing its 750ish. Hope it comes somewhat disassembled, not sure how to get 750 through the door. I have a 1000lb hand truck, but that load is too tall (moved my 500lb stove with it, just barely and with two of us), and I will destroy the front door threshold, or whats left of it.
When my borther in law picked up his Woodstock stove at the factory, it was sitting on a VERY stout pallet. That will save a bit of weight, but it sounds as though yo still have quite a handful.
Lay down some boards on either side of your threshold to protect it?
Quote from: John Mc on January 14, 2015, 12:30:35 PM
Lay down some boards on either side of your threshold to protect it?
thanks, that's exactly what I did when we brought the last one in and I didnt build it up high enough and the tires touched the threshold (adjustable plastic one screwed into aluminum). The thresold didnt survive, so I guess I cant screw it up much more, will probably use the same method, either that, or disassemble it outside if its assembled and take in piece by piece. This weekend is supposed to be warm, so that will work if necessary.
Make a ramp and bridge over the threshold using blocking and a piece of 3/4" plywood, a few screws to hold things together might help as well.
Some people will burn a small fire in a new stove before bringing in the house to reduce the "new stove smell".
I am interested to see how you like your new stove.
The hardware stores around here sell replacement plastic (or metal) threshholds, if I'm correctly picturing what your are talking about. They're not all that expensive.
Thanks for the input, will update how the stove works, (and how its shipped !, as in pieces or a complete assemebly. We are forcasted for warm weather this weekend, so Im thinking if I get it picked up tomorrow, and in place on Friday, I have 2 good days where I can run it with the windows "open-ish" (highs near 40 last I looked, was -6 this morning)
The door came from Menards, its a Mastercraft, Im guessing they have them in stock, where I live, that is my local hardware store, or should I say, they put my local hardware store out of business... >:(
I picked up my woodstock stove in a van. It was bolted to the pallet where the legs mount to it. Still on the pallet I rolled it out of the van with pipe as rollers and planks thru the door, put plywood on the floor and rolled it into place. I had to jack up 1 end at a time to take the bolts off and put the legs on. Took a couple of hours to get it in place. Now dropping the stainless steel liner down the chimney and putting the tee together 15" inside the chimney that was a real challange. ;D
Quote from: John Mc on January 13, 2015, 11:46:22 PM
Blackfoot Griz -
Is that what's sometimes called a masonry heater? That type of thing is what would be in my house now, if I'd known about them 12 years ago when we were building the house.
Yes--it is.
Quote from: Windy_Acres on January 14, 2015, 11:14:29 AM
Quote from: thechknhwk on January 14, 2015, 09:49:37 AM
@Windy_Acres (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24268) I like that soapstone stove you posted, and the price is not unreasonable compared to some of the others I have seen.
Thanks, I kinda like Black Foots "furnace ?", that baby has got to be heavy !
It weighs over 9,000 lbs! Just a big heat mass!
Below is the structure below the floor for support
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21659/DCP_0252.JPG)
Picked up the stove today, included a road trip with unscheduled stops, so I didnt get it unloaded/unpacked, but plan to tomorrow, as well as installed it all goes to plan.
Installed the new stove today, had my first stinky fire.
Not sure how I like it, will report back in a week or so...
Id include a pic, but cant, because I cant figure it out. I have in the past, so please, dont bother telling me how to do it again, I will just forget it again. Ive uploaded it, its there, it just does not show up with this post.
Looks good.
It won't show up in a post until you put it in your post. ;) But you are right, it is in your gallery. Keep poking at it. ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34268/20142C112C05_021.jpg) Thanks Been-There, I didnt know I had a gallery !
When you are in the post you want to add the stove pic, just click on the line below "Click here to add Photos to post" and then a window will pop up. At the top you will see "Upload.." and "My Gallery".. so click on "My Gallery" any yours will pop up. Click on the pic there that you want in your post, and it will enlarge. SCROLL down a ways below that pic and you will see what to click "Insert Image in Post" button which will request a Yes/No answer. Click Yes and your pic should be in your post.
Click on the "Preview" button, and you should see what your post will look like when you click on "Post".
Sounds more difficult than it really is. ;)
Ok Been There, I hit enough buttons that somehow, it appeared in my post, thanks for the help.
You should be happy with it, once you get in broken in. My sister and B-I-L love theirs... I've yet to meet anyone who has a Woodstock stove that hasn't been happy with it. Very clean burning and efficient. Just make sur eyou understand how to operate it properly to preserve the catalyst life.
Quote from: John Mc on January 17, 2015, 02:44:01 PM
You should be happy with it, once you get in broken in. My sister and B-I-L love theirs... I've yet to meet anyone who has a Woodstock stove that hasn't been happy with it. Very clean burning and efficient. Just make sur eyou understand how to operate it properly to preserve the catalyst life.
Thanks John,
So far, in just one day, I can see its moving through less than half of the wood Im used to feeding.
I works in a totally different manner than the old stove. So far I like it. Love having a window (didnt before).
I have noticed, while working downwind outside today, I can not smell anything coming from the flue, as in before, you could tell I was heating with wood, no mistaking the smell outside, and Ive also noticed zero visible "exhaust" out of the flue, where before, we was always "smokin".
Did a bunch of reading on it before purchasing, from what I read, I thought it had a learning curve that would take a while, but for me, it seems down right simple, Ive got it cruising along at 600 degrees... no problem keeping it there.
Im trying to bake off the smell of the paint. Got several windows open right now.
Windy
Did you buy it direct or through a dealer local to you?
Using less wood along with the 40+ temps may go hand in hand today. ;D
Quote from: beenthere on January 17, 2015, 03:13:08 PM
Windy
Did you buy it direct or through a dealer local to you?
Using less wood along with the 40+ temps may go hand in hand today. ;D
Ive got several windows wide open (off gassing of new stove). High today was 38 at my near by airport.
Bought it direct, I didnt know they had dealers.
The old stove burned a significant amount of wood just to keep it lit. It was a late 70s model, somewhere I still have owners manual, but have no idea where its at, I just remember it having a born on date of somthing like 1979. It was/is a very loose stove, with little in the way of air control, Im thinking that is why it moved through as much wood as it did. That and the built in damper had a the large hole in the middle and was otherwise very loose fitting so you could not control the air. Im also burning up to 4 year seasoned wood. Some of it is very light and fast burning.
Im thinking I went from a pretty inefficient stove to a pretty efficient stove. This puppy is tight. Im not going to say Im a fan of this stove yet, but it is tight.
When you buy a new stove you lite it up outside first to burn off the [new]
I did that when I made mine. I have 150.00 in it and It has been in use for over 20 years and going good. No catalyst.
For me when I see all the new wood stoves and the stuff they put on them. To me It's like reinventing the wheel.
I do wish all of you good luck with your fancy stoves :D :D :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCN2814.JPG)
Peter,you're the one with the fancy stove. Love that brick work too.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on January 17, 2015, 07:58:33 PM
When you buy a new stove you lite it up outside first to burn off the [new]
I did that when I made mine. I have 150.00 in it and It has been in use for over 20 years and going good. No catalyst.
For me when I see all the new wood stoves and the stuff they put on them. To me It's like reinventing the wheel.
I do wish all of you good luck with your fancy stoves :D :D :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCN2814.JPG)
Nice set up, had a neighbor that heated like yours, without the surround.
I see your beautiful brick work acts as a heat sink, and is a nice setup.
Yes, it was suggested to me that I burn it outside first, that was not an option, as the logistics presented themselves to me. The stove arrived assembled, I had help for one day, it took from 9am to 4pm to uncrate, and get into the house sitting where it needed to be. Then I piped it myself that evening with new pipe. I only had help available to me on Friday, so she had to go in. We ordered this stove back in the late summer/early fall, I had no idea Id be seeing it in late January, or things would have gone a little more smoothly.
I went from used $50 simple stove to as you put it a "re-invented wheel" These stove are like cars, there was the model T, there is now the new Taurus, they share allot of similarities, like 4 wheels and a seat, they are also technically quite different, even though they shared the same fuel. If I needed to get around, Id probably lean towards the taurus. And thats not vanity talking, this Woostock stove costs almost twice what I paid for my daily driver and no one will ever see it or know about it, except you folks on this forum.
We changed stoves, not to save the environment, not because it looks pretty, but because we figure we will use a fraction of the wood we have been using. We live in Farm Land Central, one natural resources we DO NOT have is wood. Our ground is extremely fertile, extremely flat, what that means is, someone is either farming or living on it. So there is no "swinging a deat cat" to hit a tree. Much to the contrary. All of what I have on hand is either diseased or wind damaged trees.
This summer I traveled 50 miles one way to harvest my "free ash" for next year. Not sure how far most wood burners go to get their wood. I got that wood off the overburden, of a gravel pit, a friend happens to own. The trees all infested with EAB.
Having only run the stove for one day so far, I can say I like the stove, it was money well spent (when factored against the cost of propane.) The used $50 stove was a better deal up front, but the rate of feeding, brought that to a quick end.
I can also say this is a radical departure from the old stove. The surface of this stove, as I have loaded it, is running 500-600 degrees, and my flue has yet to break 300. If I got my old stove that hot, the flue would be at least as hot as the stove. Meaning, precious energy is going up the flue, no pun intended.
Both temps, are surface temps, the stove pipe is singe wall measure at 18" and both numbers verified with a touchless digital thermometer.
Windy-Acres. I wish you the best of luck with your new stove. In NH we have a lot of trees, And I only burn 5 0r 6 cords a year. My house is tight, but not so I have to put in an outside air inlet like the new houses of today. To me a house that tight is a mold factory, I have seen it.
I think I might burn an extra ½ cord a year with my stove. I just got back from one of my wood lots where I sent a logger to pull wood for me. I think I'll have 2 years of wood there. I won't know till I cut and split it. Do you think there's 10 cords there?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCF0924.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCF0925.JPG)
@Windy_Acres hows the progress hybrid doing? I ordered one last week. My foray into a wood furnace was not what I wanted.