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Belsaw build

Started by glendaler, May 30, 2018, 03:24:52 PM

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jimparamedic

Consistency on what comes off the mill is what we strive for and as nice a product as possible. I'm sure you will be cutting nice boards in no time 

moodnacreek

Glendaler, You want a table and a handrail for safety, only take one slip or fall. Put some kind of hook on a stick and lay it on this table and use it to pull the slivers, bark, etc. so as not to heat the saw. The problem with the table is when you work on the saw [filing]. it won't let you stand. You also need room for sawdust.  This low spot or pit is easy to slide into, another reason for table and rail.

glendaler

Not much progress lately, we're getting a late blast of winter weather here that's slowing things down. I've set the end of the month as a finish goal so there will be updates soon.
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

glendaler

Blade guide with stainless hardware and new pegs.



 
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

Crusarius

for my led worklights I bought a bunch of 12" led light bars from amazon they cost $20 for a pair. Now I either hook them to a PC power supply to power them or I hook them straight to a battery. cheapest and best worklight I have ever had. when I drop something on them its not a huge loss.

Trapper John

Glendaler
My 40" saw is at the saw doc's right now.  I am having a fair share of difficulty saw accurately so I am eliminating the possibilities one by one.  He asked me what I was sawing and when I said spruce he said it was one of the most difficult woods to saw and that using 9/32" teeth could be most of my problem.    He said he was changing out the 9/32 teeth to 10/32 or maybe even 11/32 depending.  Apparently spruce needs a lot of clearance because it's "springy".  I am sure you have a lot of spruce there.
Because you are a machinist I would like to know what is the acceptable run out on an arbor.  I put a dial indicator on mine and found there was .006" runout.  Could this cause me trouble?

moodnacreek

A lot of guys have trouble sawing spruce. I have sawn spruce from day one because often it's the only soft wood I can get. [got a truck load yesterday, more on the way]. Now there is woods grown spruce, fresh, that's the best. then there is open grown, big knots, wavy grain, and if it's been laying around, even worse. From some wood lots comes curved butt spruce, good luck with that. Anyhow the saw teeth must be wide and sharp because it saws hairy and around the big knots it may raise the grain so bad you have to stop and go or saw very slow which is never good. Chrome teeth seem to help and I wonder about chrome shanks. Sometime you will hit 3 knots at once and the saw will try to go around them. A 2 1/2 style saw is best. Wet logs are better also. Deep cuts [big logs] are a test for you and if dry even more so.

glendaler

The first logs I have lined up are spruce, and lots of it. I was going to try and get away with the teeth on the saw to start with but your advice makes sense to me, so I've ordered a box of teeth, 5/16. The ones on the saw are quite worn and narrow.

Trapper, tolerances are extremely specific to application so I'm not sure I'm qualified to speak to sawmill tolerances just yet, but first of all where exactly are you dialing to get that .006"?

*Edit: I couldn't find it the first time I looked but after some more searching through "Circular Sawmills and their Efficient Operation" I found where they say if you dial the fast collar and it deviates more than .002"-.003" it needs to be machined.
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

moodnacreek

Because the bellsaw mandrel has no pin drive you can 'clock' the saw and tighten the nut and spin it and check the wobble at the guide pins. The idea is to oppose the wobble in the saw with the wobble in the collar. [no dirt, rust, sawdust]. You can also try paper rings on the collars stuck on with oil. I always wipe oil on the collars when the saw is off or going back on. Otherwise the collars must be re cut with the proper taper. .006 with a small dia. saw may work ok.

Trapper John

Glendaler, I measured the .006" near the center of the arbor.   I just put the indicator on the fixed collar and found .003" runout.  I also did the procedure where you hand tighten the arbor nut then move your guide pins next to the saw and then fully tighten the nut.  I am happy to report I did not see any movement of the saw at the guide pins.  
I have the same belt feed as you and I could not use the stock 12" pulley to power the live shaft, way too fast.  I went to a 18" pulley and it works better for me.  But I have to keep the feed belt tight and I still throw the belt and have tracking problems.  I am gathering the components for hydraulic feed.  

Trapper John


moodnacreek

Hyd. feed. I have pondered that for my mill [It has friction and belt gig]. I think if you chain a hydrolic motor to the feed shaft that operates at a fast return [gig[ that is the fast speed you want, then through the motor spool valve the feed flow goes through a flow control valve that you adjust. Could it be that simple?

luap

Quote from: Trapper John on April 19, 2019, 07:09:01 PM



when you rotate the mandrel as shown and you get a reading of .003, that is total indicator axial runout. Actual runout is half that. So you need to know what runout is being specified. When you measure radial runout between the bearings it doesn't really tell you what you need to know because placement of the bearings will change that. In a perfect world there should be zero runout. Keep in mind It's not the space shuttle. .003 tir should be good.

luap

Quote from: moodnacreek on April 19, 2019, 07:47:58 PM
Hyd. feed. I have pondered that for my mill [It has friction and belt gig]. I think if you chain a hydrolic motor to the feed shaft that operates at a fast return [gig[ that is the fast speed you want, then through the motor spool valve the feed flow goes through a flow control valve that you adjust. Could it be that simple?
That is essentially what I put on my American #1 but reverse from your description. Hydraulic motor is direct coupled to carriage feed. Open center control valve appox 8 gal per min. Output direct connection to feed rotation. Return flow for gig back goes through adjustable flow valve. So when sawing the valve is feathered to adjust rate of feed. On gig back valve is held fully back with speed controlled by setting on adjustable valve. you can still feather return rate but max speed is restricted by adjustable valve

Trapper John

Thanks for clarifying the difference between indicator runout and actual runout and the difference between axial and radial runout.  I am trying to get my head around the hydraulics.  So the flow valve is placed in the gig back line and only limits the maximum flow in that line?
Here is what I plan to work with.

 

 
The pump and motor came out of a scissors lift.  The pump (cant find model number) was direct powered by a 4 cylinder gas engine and the motor is 15 gpm and 353rpm.  The valve came out of a forklift so I assume it will not work because it is not a motor spool.  (Besides it has too many fittings!) 

glendaler

Quote from: Trapper John on April 19, 2019, 07:03:46 PM
I could not use the stock 12" pulley to power the live shaft, way too fast.

I have a 20" pulley on mine, the previous owner made a wooden one about 16" to run faster. I'm glad to know you have a 12" because I wasn't sure where on the scale I was but I'm obviously on the slow end which is fine with me. I'm waiting for my belt to come now. With the smaller pulley they were running, the belts that came with the machine are too short and I can't find a way to rework the geometry I'd be happy with to use the shorter belts. In the mean time I've got my pulleys mounted and cable run, just have to pick up clamps for the cable. Guide rails are on and the carriage is on. 
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

moodnacreek

Laup, thanks for that post.

jimparamedic

I like setting up and maintaining and upgrading my mill almost as much as sawing with it.

Trapper John

Luap, so if I my motor is 15gpm I should get a 15gpm open center motor spool valve and a 15gpm adjustable flow valve?  

moodnacreek

Quote from: jimparamedic on April 20, 2019, 09:45:54 AM
I like setting up and maintaining and upgrading my mill almost as much as sawing with it.
So do I but I buy logs and logs spoil. Sawing and stacking all the time these days. Looking forward to making a pantograph and getting hydraulic lines too carriage to power set works.

moodnacreek

Glendaler, The best way to power a bellsaw [with an engine] is to mount the engine on a skid that is too wide so you can put an elevated shaft, on pillow blocks, parallel to the engine and Vee belted to it at the ratio needed. Use pick up truck sized drive shaft, slip joints, yokes, etc. to connect to mandrel.  A lot of work but trust me, well worth it.

glendaler

So far I like the idea of not having another engine to maintain and just pulling up with the tractor when I want to mill. But if I do run a motor it will be how you described.

Guide rails are on, carriage is on and cables run but needs fine tuning. Blade guides are on. PTO adapter made and on. Waiting on feed belt and have to figure out the splitter.



 
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

moodnacreek

Lookin good. A tractor pto accomplishes the same advantages such as no belt pull [overhung load] and so much easier to play with the lead. But be careful when you shut down as the nut that holds the blade can unscrew . Your tractor pto must coast slowly to a stop.

glendaler

Just tried the PTO shaft I made actually. Nice and smooth and when I popped the PTO out of gear the blade free-spun for quite a while.
Belsaw A10 circle mill,

luap

Quote from: moodnacreek on April 20, 2019, 08:43:24 AM
Laup, thanks for that post.
I need to clarify my hydraulic feed post. There are different types of flow control valves and what I use technically is more of an adjustable orifice than a flow control valve. I am restricting the flow in a circuit or a loop that goes from valve to motor back to valve. So it can be on either the in or the out side of the motor which would be forward or reverse and restricts the flow in the complete loop regardless of direction of flow of oil... The valve it self is a high pressure needle valve rated at 3000 #psi and is adjusted by trial and error. The  valve is on the reverse side because that was the location I could easily reach during setup. my goal was to  control max return speed without paying strict attention to what I was doing with the control lever. There is a sweet spot that it is more than fast enough sawing and fast enough on the return.

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