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Desireable Characteristics for High Value Aspen Clones?

Started by pmcgover, September 09, 2013, 08:29:48 PM

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pmcgover

I breed aspen trees for a hobby.  I enjoy the entire process from breeding and selection to cutting them down 20+ years later.  Aspen and Poplars are often considered a low value crop often used for pulp or biomass, so I wanted to investigate aspens potential for higher value products.  I need to understand the most desirable aspen veneer or lumber characteristics from a marketing standpoint.

FWIW - There have been some interesting aspen developments such as improved propagation from stem cuttings and figured wood as a genetic trait that can be transferred to the offspring.  This means that one should be able to plant aspens via dormant cuttings and expect to find figured wood in (hopefully) all of the trees at harvest.  In short there is a lot of variability in aspens, you just have to find the right recipe and culture.

So below are some questions:

  • Do you find much aspen with figured wood in your area?  Is it more common in bigtooth or smalltooth aspen (or the same)?
  • Do you see figure at the clonal level (all trees in a cluster arising from the same root system)? 

  • Do you see variations of the intensity of figure in aspen?   

  • I have observed aspen being used as an alternative to knotty pine.  Do you think there is a market for Knotty Aspen? 

  • Some folks like the contrast of the darker heartwood to the lighter sapwood.  How do mixed wood colors impact timber value? 

  • What are the wood characteristics of your ideal "Designer Aspen" (such as figure, white wood, mixed wood, knotty poplar or other traits)? 

  • Speculate that your ideal aspen clone was planted across many acres and the trees are of excellent quality, and 20" DBH:
    What might be the value of a typical tree if the first 16' was veneer quality?
    What might be the value of a typical tree if the first 16' was select quality (not quite veneer)?
 

Corley5

Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom


beenthere

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
You pose a number of interesting questions, some with merit if the veneer tree can be realized.

What is your experience leading up to breeding trees that are now 20+ yrs old? Will be interesting to learn more from you.

What species are you calling "smalltooth aspen" ?  What species names are you coming up with when cross breeding?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Clark

I can't answer most of your questions directly but can offer you some slight advice. There is a company in Portland, Oregon (Greenwood Resources) that is doing quite a bit of research on hybrid poplar (probably from cottonwood originally).  They have taken poplar plantations and turned them from producing only pulp into sawlog producing plantations.  Their goal is to one day produce veneer in a short-rotation plantation.  I imagine they could, if they wanted, answer many of your questions.  I know they have plantations along the Columbia River and in the deep South.

I've never seen much for figure in aspen, what little you can find is often very subtle. 

From what I've seen, bigtooth aspen is a much more desirable tree than quaking. However, it has a much narrower tolerance when it comes to site conditions.  Around here it grows best on gravelly soils and can produce close to 100 cords/acre in small clones. Quaking tends not to do that but will grow just about anywhere.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

pmcgover

I cut firewood in High School, worked a summer in a saw mill and cut timber for about a year.  Then I read an article in Mother Earth News about Hybrid Poplars (July/August 1980) and started a small tree nursery peddling Poplars for a few years.  Oh, they grow fast but they seemed to die faster so I became interested in breeding to improve them.  I took some college courses in Botany, Genetics but ended up with a degree (and a career) in Computer Science.  Long story short, I code by day and breed by night...  :o

So in the late '80s through early '90's I hooked up with some breeding projects with Iowa State University (DOE funded) and was able to infuse many Canadian aspen materials (alba and hybrids).  I've also had several smaller projects since 2005, where I used parents from my earlier crosses.  My general approach has been to use the exotic White poplar (P. alba) to get vigor and good rooting traits, but they tend to have poor form compared to native aspens.  I don't do much work with small tooth aspen (P. tremuloides), I prefer its upland relative bigtooth (P. grandidentata).  However, small tooth is a favorite of other breeding programs that mate it with the European aspen (P. tremula).  There is little hope of rooting from stem cuttings with those parent combinations.

So now I basically have about 10 "lines" or families of more or less pure alba and a number of hybrids.  The hybrids are mixtures of our native bigtooth aspen, the European aspen and matings with alba.  My most recent interest is pursuing more "native" lines consisting of 75% bigtooth aspen.  A potential cross could be a double hybrid back cross like: (AG x AG) x G.  I speculate that they may not grow as fast as the alba types but may have better form and be more adaptable to upland sites.  Time will tell...

The current emphasis with poplars and willows is to grow them at close spacings on short rotations for low value biomass markets.  Aspens have not been included much perhaps because most don't propagate from stem cuttings and their tendency to sucker and "ruin" the original spacing.  We think the aspen suckering is an incredible asset because you may not need to plant as many trees and the new suckers are a "fresh start" that may reduce some disease issues.  Aspens are good at regeneration.  If aspens can be bred and grown for higher value markets then perhaps the suckers can be harvested for biomass (using tools like the biobaler) and thin the site for the target trees.

For more project details see: https://sites.google.com/site/open4st/home

mesquite buckeye

Such materials if found in a cultivated area are patentable. ;D 8) 8) 8) I wouldn't bother unless what you find is extra super primo good. ;D ;D ;D :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

pmcgover

Yes, I am aware of patented willows and poplars but hope I don't go there... 

I espouse the "Open Source" programming model and under most situations, I would like to keep my aspens open and free as well.  I can see value in patenting ornamental trees.  However, I think patenting trees for forestry purposes restricts future improvement and increases establishment costs.  I think funding should support forestry research, but keep elite selections free to encourage future breeding and un-impended testing. 

So far it appears that figure in wild aspen is rare and intense figure perhaps even more rare.  That's OK, I think it will be fun trying to find them...

beenthere

In my experience (limited as it is), wild aspen veneer (rotary peeled) has a fair amount of figure. This aspen  came from logs in northern MN (north of Duluth) and was peeled at a plywood plant in Edmonton, AL.
The intent was to see if aspen was a viable species to make sheathing grade plywood.
Logs were graded, then peeled, the veneer dried, and the sheets graded.
The end result was that there was so much clear grade veneer for faces that the plywood made ended up being paneling. The aspen figure comes out as a different "sheen". Aspen board paneling will exhibit the same figure, from what I have seen.
Getting aspen to grow fast, and with little defect, is an admirable goal and I wish you success.
There was a USFS genetics lab in northern WI, but don't recall who all was involved or what was its demise. Maybe at Rhinelander?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

pmcgover

Thanks for your reply - very interesting!  I have expectations that there may be variations in aspen figure intensity that we can exploit and transfer to clones with other desireable traits. 

So, would you be able to answer question number 7 in my initial post?  Knowing a ballpark tree value will help us know if this work would be feasible for land owners.

mesquite buckeye

I started out thinking as you do about making it free. Then there are your expenses and skill selecting clones, accessing materials, the value of your time. All of these have value and cost as you could pursue other activities otherwise. Royalties rarely exceed 10% for plant materials, not a big increase in cost, but can be a big benefit to the person who found or created the new clone. If you are rich, this is not an issue, but it is impossible to know the future. I created many quite successful clones of landscape plants over many years, and turned them loose for free. Then my job went bye bye after 21 years of service at 60 yrs old. Those royalties, which might have been $5-15K/year would have really helped out. Experience can be a tough teacher. Best of luck with whatever you find and decide to do. ;D :( :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

beenthere

Quotewould you be able to answer question number 7 in my initial post?

No crystal ball here, and therefore do not have a clue.

Is your degree out of ISU at Ames?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

pmcgover

Ok, any idea what those trees would bring in current market prices for veneer and select?

No, my IS degree was from Grand Rapids.

mesquite buckeye

Good chance the F2's would be way more interesting than an immediate backcross. You will get way more variation to pick from and the cripples will fall to the wayside. ;D

I'm working on a little ponderosa pine breeding project in Missouri. Shouldn't take too much longer than another 60-80 years to get something pretty cool. :o 8) 8) 8) 8)
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

pmcgover

The aspen F2s like AG (alba x grandidentata) or P. canescens (aka "C" which is alba x tremula) have been around for quite a while.  Yes, some really good selections can be found but I was always disappointed with the rooting.  I "happened" to collect some open pollinated seed from a CAG (canescans x AG) double hybrid clone.  I found aspen and alba types.  The amazing find was that the aspen types looked like 100% aspen and the best selection rooted extremely well (100% of the 6 6" otets rooted).  My best AGs and canescens might root 50% - 60% at best.  So I speculate that the male pollen was wild bigtooth, which I will reproduce next year. 

Therefore the cross could be a double hybrid backcross -> (CAG) x G and I speculate that there is a lot of re-combination going on to give significant variability in the progeny for cool selection opportunities...  The downside to the above (CAG) x G cross is that they might loose vigor compared to the parents and/or encounter genetic issues from the multi-species combinations.  So far they are "competitive" with my other selections.  I have been reminded that there is much we don't know about these types of combinations in trees.  So it should be a learning experience.


Good luck on your pine breeding - I bet it is rewarding and a lot of fun.

mesquite buckeye

Usually the good ones have good babies. Maybe not all of them but enough.  ;D

Since they runner so well, why not use root cuttings for reproduction?

The pines are from a test growout of a bunch of western conifers. We ended up with 3 lines of ponderosa near each other that are doing ok to great. Hoping to get better adapted progeny when they start to cross naturally. Still waiting to get the first cones. 18 years and waiting, waiting .....
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

pmcgover

Propagating via root cuttings and rootlings is the best option for native aspen and hybrids without alba parentage.  But man its a pain to ramp up as you have to dig up roots from older trees and pray that you can get some to grow shoots.  Its hit or miss.  I have done that enough to really appreciate aspens that root from dormant cuttings. 

To that end we are working on a 3 stage cultural process that starts these good rooters in a fertile, irrigated stool bed area to grow as stools for annual harvest of 8-10' whips or poles as some call them.  Then one could plant these tall poles 2' deep and lop off the top so there is a solid 6' whip above ground.  Then wrap the lower section to protect from rabbits/deer and even roundup...  The idea is that you can afford to spend more resources on fewer initial stems per acre and let the suckering establish the site after cutting them after say 5 years.   

pmcgover

Ok, how about some ballpark stumpage estimates for 200 board foot aspen veneer trees that have "highly" figured wood, in excellent quality and cover many acres?
 

mesquite buckeye

You might try softwood to semi-hardwood cuttings in a mist house w/dip and grow. We get lots of things that supposedly won't root at all that way, often in high percentages. ;D 8) 8) 8)
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Ron Wenrich

I don't have a lot of information on aspen, as we don't view it as an economically important species in my area.  I do remember that someone was peddling hybrid poplar back in the late '70s and they had a nursery I think in Lititz, PA.  I don't believe they are around anymore.

Some of the thinking was to use it in strip mine reclamation.  Penn State did some research on the feasibility of short term growing for biomass.  But, its hard to beat the economics of coal in PA.  Now we have natural gas that's just as hard.  They never looked at the lumber aspects since mills are geared mainly to a cherry or oak market place.  Aspen planting never took off due to no markets on the other end.

I remember a number of years ago that someone was trying to sell hybrid walnut that grew into an 18" tree within 25 years.  That sure sounds like a good thing to plant, considering the market for walnut is always there.  I asked a veneer buyer what he thought of the idea.  His response was "who would want it"?  The problem is that the growth rings are too far apart to give much character to the wood.  I don't know if your aspen would have the same problem. 

I do know that we have sold a lot of tulip poplar as a filler for hardwood paneling.  These logs are far from perfect and do have knots.  They also buy aspen.  We even brought back some of the rejects they had, and they were huge.  We never sawed them due to the limited market, and the low market value.  They went to someone sawing pallets. 

For pricing, maybe you should contact a veneer buyer in your area.  They can give you a better idea of value than anyone else.  They set the market.  What kind of price are your looking for?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

pmcgover

What kind of price am I looking for?  I would like to know a ballpark stumpage estimate for 200 board foot aspen veneer trees that have "highly" figured wood, in excellent quality and cover many acres.  I need this value to understand if its feasible to grow aspen for veneer or even high quality logs.  Its the "chicken before the egg" scenario.  I think its possible to breed aspen that can grow to veneer quality in 20 to 25 years, but a "tree farmer" needs to know if its worth it. 

I am betting that most current aspen veneer prices reflect a low quantity of high value veneer logs with highly desirable veneer slicing characteristics.  So if the "ideal" aspen veneer tree were developed and planted in large areas then perhaps it might commoditize aspen veneer using whatever proven clones.  If the mills could tap into a supply of reliable - high quality aspens, then perhaps they would be willing to pay higher prices for it. 


Ron Wenrich

Then you need to talk to those that use the product.  Namely veneer buyers and veneer users.  If you think you can develop a veneer that has high figure, then find out from those that make the market is they'll be interested.

The problem is that you don't have a product to show the user and you're talking about markets 20-25 years in the future.  Its one of the problems that foresters have when they manage a timber stand for the market.  No one knows what the markets will be that far out, especially when you're talking hardwoods. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

mesquite buckeye

Are you doing this on your own, or is this a non-profit or government project? Just curious. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

pmcgover

Ok, I agree that I should investigate this from a mill perspective because ultimately, they buy and process the logs. 

Regarding funding.  My "Phase One" research was funded in the early 90's by the DOE in collaboration with ISU.  Since then I had one smaller project funded (2005) by another university.  I have self funded phases 2 and 3 and it looks like 4 will be the same but there are efforts to obtain funding. 

I had to do a lot of crosses in the 90's since we were starting out.  I used an entire floor of a vacated academy to produce crosses in the 90's.  Now I do everything from my house and grow the stuff in my backyard nursery where I test them for a few years.  It's not ideal but works well.  I am fortunate to have cooperators that can conduct the longer term field testing.

mesquite buckeye

Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

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