What is most important!

[The Woodcooker]

If you were teaching a sawmill class ( hardwoods) What do you think should get the most attention? :

[IL Bull]

Besides safety I would think how and where to make the opening cut. :P

[woody1]

If I were taking a sawmill class, the thing that would be most important to me would be to start sawing. If I were teaching the class, the most important thing should be safety. I also think that the history of the sawmill would be interesting also.

[Ron Wenrich]

I think there's a lot more to cover before you start the saw.  Proper setup and maintenance is a must in order for any piece of equipment to maintain a decent cut and make proper lumber.

Number 2 on my list would be wood products.  There is a difference in the types of grade.  You should know them before you set saw to wood.  I would go over the types of defects, and what is acceptable and what is not.  I'd also cover pallet stock, ties and dimension lumber.  I would cover different sawing styles.  Sawing for grade, inside out sawing, quartersawing, live sawing.

Good question.

[Bibbyman]

If you're talking about teaching a class of novice students,  I'd say start with the nomenclature.  They will need to know the names of parts of the mill, tools,  logs, lumber,   operations, procedures so you can start to communicate with them.  Even here on the Forum we'll sometimes use a word or phrase that most people outside of the trade have not heard.  For example a lot of our customers are not familiar with sizing lumber by the board feet.  Most don't even know how to calculate it.

[MikeH]

 Well, the biggest shocker to me when I started sawing (hardwoods) was how hard it was to get a clear board (select or better) out of a typical log. Clear boards come from 2 or 3 sides of a butt log and the rest of the tree is pallet material in oaks around here. To think I thought you could walk in the woods drag out a blown down tree and have 200 bdft. of select hardwood.
  If there is one disapointment in custom sawing, it is when I saw for someone who has a bunch of junk logs not knowing any better.
The very first log I had milled (hired a bandsawer) was a huge curly (didn't know it at the time) Maple.    Over 200 bdft mostly clear maple. Had it been a big rotted oak, I probably would not be on this forum today. Six years later and I have yet to find another curly half as good as that one.  :(





   

[cantcutter]

I also think grading, if they are getting into sawing they need to beable to look at a log and know whether it is worth putting the blade to or not.

[Lud]

It's a trick question.

There's those that think a "class"  is always the best first step to get going the fastest-safest-most productive-blah-blah-blah-etc.

If you're lucky enough to be around wood /woodworkers/whitllers and grow up loving wood and then get exposed to someone sawing and get excited by it and get a mill and find the Forum and spend several hours a week reading real experiences and joys and sorrows and the problems being faced by those who run mills of all sizes.......

You're in a "class" already!!

The problem with a class  ,as a first step , is you get trapped into being told how to think and you'll tend to go down paths already pursued instead of exploring/learning for yourself.

Too many people don't think for themselves and let themselves be told what to think- what is possible - and never develop their imaginations.  Excuse the rant but if you get my point.......

Blaze your own trail !   Go your own direction!  Learn as you go!  IMHO  :P :P :P

[Dan_Shade]

Ron, What is "inside out sawing"?

Quality education and training are a tremendous help to production and a firm understanding of basic principles.  Just like with everything else in life, one has to be able to determine the level of quality of the education and training.

I'd cover opening faces, depth of cut, thickness of boards, trim cuts, orientation of the heart check, orientation of sweep, and edging to start the list.

With all presentations, it's always important to understand your audience and what needs conveyed to the audience.  Classes and seminars are presentations.

[Bro. Noble]

I don't know what 'inside-out' sawing is,  but I've got some fine examples of some inside out wood turning that Charlie did ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Not to bore the new owner with too much detail, at first. Switch back and forth, from safety, to operation, to safety, to adjustments, to sawing a few boards, back to safety, etc., etc.  Mix up the info, so they don't get goggle eyed and stop paying attention. 

  A bored person is more likely to get into trouble than a slightly educated one, from the start.

[beenthere]

My guess at inside-out sawing would be knowing ahead what the target is in the log center (such as a 6x6 cant), then sawing down to that cant on four sides, getting the most out of the side lumber in grade and volume. 
It might (but I doubt ) also be sawing the log into quarters, and then sawing boards off each alternating face of each quarter out to the log surface.

[ely]

hey be sure and let me know when this class starts. i don't know or understand half of what you fellows have brought up thus far. i relly have no concept of the opening cut, or the sweep of the log, blah blah...........
i just get the log on the mill and get to sawing lumber. i really probably should go and tail some lumber for you guys and learn the small details. maybe eat a few cans of beans with tom.

[ErikC]

     What I think would help people is to start sawing after an overview of the procedure, then review it after a log or two is cut.  Start with flatsawing some logs, then talk about when and why thats usefull. Next, some quartersawn, some timbers, cants whatever. Keep the sawing and the talking at a balance and everyone will stay interested.

Erik

[Part_Timer]

Ely, swingmill class starts the 18th of Feb. ;)  The travel time is a killer though.

[ely]

could i request an online version of that class ;D

[Dan_Shade]

you already found it, Ely! 

[Robert Long]

Presuming all the above has been delt with in classes and at wood lots etc... are you planning to teach milling at the commercial level or do you plan to show band sawing or are all types of mills available to you?

Robert

[Ron Wenrich]

Inside out sawing is what Beenthere said.  You have to be able to build a stack so you can end up where you want before you start sawing.  Most guys know how to do that, but they just don't know what its called.   ;)

[Dan_Shade]

that's how I saw dimensional lumber, had no idea what it was called

[Bibbyman]

If you were teaching a sawmill class ( hardwoods) What do you think should get the most attention? :

The problem is,  there is a lot missing from this original question.  Like,  who is the student or students and how much do they know already?   

For example,  if I had to teach the basics of sawing to a high school AG class,  I'd have to start out with a lot of classroom time and then we'd go out and let them watch me saw logs for a day or more.  Then I'd likely go "one on one" while they each sawed a log while others watched.

On the other hand, if I were going to make a sawyer out of my son Gabe I could pretty much just turn him loose and have him ask questions when he needed help or stop and make suggestions when he went off someplace wrong.  He's already worked around the mill for a number of years and knows about everything except how to turn a log into lumber.  But he's seen it done a million times. He'd need practice actually sawing and getting familiar with the controls.  (He'll often load a log, turn to the right face and level it.)

[Robert Long]

Perhaps it should be an Apprenticeship  4 year program.  This would be more a one on one with a journeyman sawyer ( if there is such a recognized profession) .

Robert

[Lud]

Who wants to be around some ol' fart for 4 years? 

I managed people who managed apprenticeships and it formalized the osmosis that comes from hanging around people doing a certain type of job and talking with them about the work all the time and doing the dog work so they can sit ,  drink coffee and eat the donuts you brought since your the apprentice.

We already do all the fun stuff here at the forum.   People who want apprenticeship programs are just looking to get some slave labor /cheap help.

You have learn it yourself by doing it...and studying/being interested in the process so that you can do it better the next time you do it.  And keep doing it . 

Now ,  if you want to be my apprentice.......hmmm,    show up Monday and bring the donuts! 8)

[Robert Long]

Lud;

Sounds like you had a bad experience with such a program........It's not to have cheap labour, it's to allow someone to gain from your knowledge and experience and that's a great thing at whatever the price. 8)

When an apprentice feels he/she has gained enough knowledge from you they should move on to "fresher donuts" :D :D

Robert

[Bibbyman]

My old Uncle Chick once told me you had to work (saw?) for 20 years to call yourself a sawyer.  And you will have studied enough to get a Batcher of Science degree.   In that case,  I'm a little over half way there.  :P

[Ron Wenrich]

I've seen lots of guys who decided they were going to be foresters.  They got the sheepskin, so all they needed was experience.  So, they go out and learn by doing.

The problem lies in not doing things the right way.  If you have 20 years of experience, and none of it is any good, its just wasted time. 

A number of years ago, the estimated cost for training a sawyer was right around $100,000.  That figures in salary, lost production, damages, and lost money due to miscuts.  I'm sure that number is a lot higher.

If I were to train a sawyer, the first thing he would do is stack lumber.  That is so he knows what its like for his help to keep caught up.  The next would be to stack lumber with a grader, so he knows his grade.  I would then start to let him working around the saw and learn mill maintanence.  He would stand and watch as I explained what I was doing and what to watch out for.  Then, I would gradually allow him to saw some low grade logs under supervision.  Eventually, they would fly solo.

I'm not saying it would take years to accomplish it.  But, to think a guy can hop up on any saw and start sawing good lumber is unrealistic.  The new sawyer will quickly get frustrated as problems crop up.  They will start to miss some pretty basic things, and then you have the accident. 

[MartyParsons]

safety, maintenance.
How to get to www.forestryforum.com  ;D

[shinnlinger]

Ok,

So how do I take this course?  I just went for it and milled all the beams for my house and feel like I have the mechanics down, but I was simply throwing decent logs on the rails and cutting what I needed.  Worked well and I now also have a nice pile of boards for future projects.  

I agree that there is no substirute for making sawdust, but now I wonder how to cut efficiently.  A log 20" round makes good 2x6's 18' 2x4's etc.  I here good sawyers can see the boards in a standing tree, but I wonder if that can be taught.

[Dan_Shade]

sawing isn't rocket science, but some educations lessens the incline of the learning curve...

a 9" log will make three 2x6's, but 9" logs are hard to saw.  Knot placement is important for dimensional lumber, as it is for grade lumber, but in grade, you want the knots on the edge, with dimensional lumber, you want the knots in the center of the board.  you can often see a knot through the bark.

[shinnlinger]

Hey Dan et all,

Is there a good search I can type in that goes through these kind of pointers? It seems like I type in the wrong words or get things that are not what I am looking for. Safety, Setting up the mill for one/two/three man operartion, necesary and optional equipment, How to rotate the log to minimize defects,  Is it worth it to jack up one end of a tapered log (especially with a manual mill), bow to increase efficiency,   At what point is a log too small to deal with( a constant argument w/the guy I own the mill with), how to deal with kinks, sawing to grade, etc

I sort of figured this stuff out, and am pleased with what I acomplished, but I am also sure there are more efficient methods for doing it.

[Justin L]

I'm all for figuring new & better ways to do things, but I know I've spent years trying to figure out things that were perfected twenty years ago by someone else. Short courses are great for getting a head start- like the 3 day kiln drying class I took a year ago. If I get a sawmill I'll probably take a short course on it too. Experience is the best teacher, but it doesn't have to be your own It's like a drivers ed class, you get all the basics, but it still takes years too REALLY know what your doing.

[thecfarm]

The search is a hard one to define.I've looked for certains treads before too.Just have to change the words.Someone had a real nice thread going about setting up a sawmill to get the most from it with rollers and placement of certains things.Maybe someone can remember this.About the taper on a manual mill.Depends how much the lumber you have gained by jacking it up by hand.Are you waiting to have it jacked up?Is the saw waiting for this to happen?Remember if you're not sawing,you're not making money.White pine may not be worth it,but walnut would be if it was good looking lumber.

[rebocardo]

Safety and where the off switch is.

[thecfarm]

shinnlinger,try green chains in your search.It came up with only one page,but a couple posts looked like what you are looking for to set up a sawmill.

[Ron Wenrich]

Log size is usually dependent on the operation.  There is a bell shaped curve for every milling operation.  It varies for species, grade and length.  Some logs are too small to run at a profit, and some are too large.  Knowing which ones to weed out is very important to stay profitable. 

Production costs have a lot to do with how much you can put through your mill in a given amount of time.  I like to come up with a number that gives your operating costs by the minute.  I know its a pain to figure up, but without it, you're running blind.

Then, you can tell how much it costs to saw a log.  Profit = lumber value - log costs - production costs.  Most guys don't have any control over lumber or log values.  The free market takes care of that.  Production costs is where you have the most control. 

[Haytrader]

shinnlinger,

In answer to your question about the taper of a log.

I saw mostly Eastern red cedar which has a lot of taper. I also have a manual mill.
I keep a 1x4 under my mill at each end of a log. I lay them across the bed of the saw and measure the center of the pith on the big end. Say it is 9". I then measure on the small end. It may be 6" so I need 3" of blocking to get the ends even. I keep several pieces handy for this. I have a 3x3x8 close by and use it as a lever to lift the small end if we can't or don't want to by hand. You have to repeat this after the first turn.
Hope this helps.

[Dan_Shade]

take a look through the Knowledge base
also read all the posts in the sawmills and milling board, there is a LOT of good stuff on this board.

[Lud]

Robert Long:  I hired hundreds of tradesmen in my lifetime.   They all had apprentice certificates but I only hired one out of twenty.  We sifted thru thousands to get hundreds of right people with right attitudes.  It's just experience with the apprenticeship process.......not a bad experience.

Formalized education and certificates are fine.  My point was that an interest in learning better ways to do things and doing them incrementally expands someone's knowledge and prepares them for the changing environment we work and live in.  That a right attitude is more important than a certificate in the long run.

There's no magic answer which the start of the thread appeared to be asking for.  i did a little Devil's Advocate on that speculation and personally think the Forum provides a great resource for most of our needs.

Kudos to Dan Shade for where he's now pushing this pile.  I'm just going to lean my shovel against the wall. and quit on the topic.